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A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

businessinsider.com

61–70 of 263 posts

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#61

> The secret to Blackbird, Cavallaro explained, is that once the wind gets the vehicle going, its wheels start to turn the propeller blades — they're connected to the blades by a chain. As the vehicle speeds up, its wheels turn the propeller faster and faster. The propeller blades, in turn, act as a fan, pushing more air behind the land yacht and thrusting it forward. That's a terrible explanation - no wonder people…

I really would like a simple explanation of how that is possible. AIUI, when speed is stable, the wheels turning provide power to the propeller. But if the propeller pushes the car, which in turn makes the wheels turn faster making the car faster than the wind itself, what makes it different from perpetual motion machines?

I would love a diagram showing how the power flows in this system.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#62

For those that hate the way news articles are written I found the Wikipedia article a much clearer read https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackbird_(wind-powered_vehi...

Like the professor in TFA I am also confused: how can the ground be imparting power to the propeller while moving downwind?

The wheel friction and gearing allows the vehicle to tie the effective velocity of the sail (actually a propeller) to the velocity of the ground.

Energy can be extracted from the interface between the ground at one velocity and the air moving at another velocity. A sail tied to the ground and extending into this wind will exert a force according to the drag equation:

    Force = 1/2 x drag coefficient x density x area x (differential velocity)^2
Typically, when going downwind, sailors ignore the ground (or the water) and just extract some energy from the difference in speed between the vehicle and the wind. Obviously, as the vehicle accelerates, this velocity difference asymptotically goes to zero where there is no more force and no more acceleration.

For a more static example, imagine an enormously long vehicle with a linear bearing running the entire axis from the front to the back. Assume for the sake of argument the vehicle is ultra-light and has very low rolling resistance, some kind of cross between a top-thrill dragster and a train, hypothetically a kilometer long. On the axial bearing, mount a wind turbine with a cable and an anchor that can be fixed to the ground. Start with the wind turbine at the front of the vehicle, then drop anchor to fix the wind turbine in place. There is a velocity differential between the ground-referenced turbine and the air that will impart force on the turbine blades, use this to generate electricity. Use an electric motor to drive the bottom part of the vehicle forwards. When the turbine reaches the back of the vehicle, lift anchor - remember we're in spherical cow territory, so assume it's foldable and super-light so this part takes little energy and can be done arbitrarily fast - and push it back to the front of the vehicle, where you can drop anchor again. In this system, the energy you can extract only depends on the difference between the ground speed and wind speed, not the vehicle speed.

Blackbird is just like this repetitively anchored wind turbine concept in that the point of reference for the wind energy extractor is the ground instead of the vehicle. But instead of dropping an anchor, you're tying to the ground speed through tires, and instead of shuttling the turbine from the back to the front, you're continuously advancing it with the gear mechanism, and instead of driving with an electric motor you're directly using the drag force.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#63
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not at all counterintuitive. It's just poorly explained. Energy is 1/2mv^2, and momentum (related to force) is mv. Anytime you have different speeds, you can arbitrage. If I am pushing against still air, I can generate nearly-infinite force for arbitrarily little energy. That's why you use wings instead of pointing jet engines downwards. You push a lot of air by a little bit (lots of mv, not a lot of 1/2mv^2, si…

Ok I have taken college level mechanics (after physics 1-2) and I have no idea what you’re saying.

Perhaps I can't explain it well either, without pictures.

But it's not all too complicated. With pencil and paper, I could explain to a high school student. If you've done college level mechanics, that's on me, or on the medium.

Perhaps I need to make a video explaining this clearly, since people are running in circles around this and it's just not very hard.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#64
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The angle of attack of the propeller blades and the gearing relative to the wheels cause the blades to be seen by the wind as moving upwind relative to the ground. Alternatively, think of it as merely harvesting energy from the velocity difference between the ground and the air. It's connected to the ground by wheels, and to the air by a big prop. It doesn't matter how fast the vehicle itself is moving as long as the…

I agree that theoretic top speed is limited only be drag (and other resistive forces) if you are able to adjust propeller pitch, gear ratio, or wheel diameter on the fly. But if those values are fixed, as with Blackbird, then you are of course limited to a top speed that is some constant multiple of wind speed.

Propeller pitch is not fixed on Blackbird, that is one of the few controls it has.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#65
post #23

The treadmill demos made me think of another counterintuitive possibility that I wondered if anyone had pulled off: sailing a boat indirectly up a river in no (bank relative) wind. Turns out, it has been done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2il8Fagbyk

Can it be done with solar sails?

This is similar to flying in air.

I suppose when your craft is big (or long) enough you could leverage differences in luminous flux (or intensity?) to generate some thrust. The differences will be tiny and the necessary craft size big. One would have to run the actual numbers, but it _could_ work in principle.

Compressing air by moving through it to leverage the resulting difference in velocities sadly won't work =( The steady state is then just the speed of air. I guess for light this also applies in a similar way.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#66

> The secret to Blackbird, Cavallaro explained, is that once the wind gets the vehicle going, its wheels start to turn the propeller blades — they're connected to the blades by a chain. As the vehicle speeds up, its wheels turn the propeller faster and faster. The propeller blades, in turn, act as a fan, pushing more air behind the land yacht and thrusting it forward. That's a terrible explanation - no wonder people…

Its actually the correct explanation tho.

This article sucked by the way. It said "Any sailor worth their salt can tell you that a boat can travel faster than the wind by cutting zigzag patterns; that's called tacking."

Any sailor worth their salt knows that is not true at all. This practically destroys any credibility on this topic by this author.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#67
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can it be done with solar sails?

Not an expert, but I'm going to say no. There is no medium in space, moving relative to the solar wind, against which the "keel" of a solar sail ship could push.

Gravity? I guess something with enough mass to use gravity might be too large to use solar sails.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#68
post #54

Sailing faster than the apparent wind[0] has been going on for a while, especially on v.high performance land and water yachts. [1] The physics involved still twist my brain, but there's nothing terribly new here. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparent_wind [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-performance_sailing

This is not what they are talking about. It's always step one to get past to understand what's going on here.

I don't believe DDWFTTW has been achieved on water.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#69

> The secret to Blackbird, Cavallaro explained, is that once the wind gets the vehicle going, its wheels start to turn the propeller blades — they're connected to the blades by a chain. As the vehicle speeds up, its wheels turn the propeller faster and faster. The propeller blades, in turn, act as a fan, pushing more air behind the land yacht and thrusting it forward. That's a terrible explanation - no wonder people…

I really would like a simple explanation of how that is possible. AIUI, when speed is stable, the wheels turning provide power to the propeller. But if the propeller pushes the car, which in turn makes the wheels turn faster making the car faster than the wind itself, what makes it different from perpetual motion machines? I would love a diagram showing how the power flows in this system.

Veritasium did a video on the Blackbird (plus a bet to prove it does indeed work). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyQwgBAaBag

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#70
post #12

The article (and wiki page linked in another comment) seem to indicate that this vehicle design already proved it can go faster than the wind over 10 years ago. Odd that the professor was so keen on betting in that case.

The professor's reasoning is near the start of the video about the bet [1]. Basically they thought the makers of blackbird were fooling themselves (e.g. measuring slower wind at the bottom of the car vs the top of the propeller, or getting pushed above the average wind speed by gusts then selectively reporting).

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCsgoLc_fzI

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