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Wealth Shown to Scale

mkorostoff.github.io

81–90 of 147 posts

Re: Wealth Shown to Scale

#81
post #59

I'm learning economic concepts so some of my notions and questions end up being naive. Would appreciate if someone could clarify/answer this. It's a fair guess that vast majority of Bezos's wealth is in Amazon equities. Which are valued as such by the participants in US equity market. A thought exercise, what would happen if he were to liquidate all of that $180+B in equities? Safe to say he will get less than $180B…

You are focusing on numbers which will lead you nowhere. The reason the US has a struggling population is that the US has a population that didn't have a good education and training. If you want to make a population richer, you need to train people to do things (ie: Plumbing, installing an Air Conditioner, becoming an ophthalmologist, etc...). As evidenced by the latest stimulus checks, giving people money will only…

Quantitative easing swaps bank reserves for high grade bonds. How is that remotely equivalent to the forced liquidation and distribution of equity?

Re: Wealth Shown to Scale

#82
post #71
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean that is broadly how we come to compare wealth, we don't spend much time going into the weeds of how that number came into being and what assumptions were made there. So I'm not surprised that some people think that of money. That being said he has gone through a divorce, he did lose a good chunk of his assets pretty quickly. Sure it was just a reallocation of assets, but unless you specifically want all of tha…

>we don't spend much time going into the weeds of how that number came into being Because number of shares owned x current market price on an actively traded public corporation just isn't all that complicated. Where are the weeds? Using $ as a measure of wealth whether liquid or not is absolutely normal in all sorts of contexts. I struggle to see why anyone would object >absorb all that wealth instantly. I asked befo…

> Where are the weeds?

I've been describing them? "number of shares owned x current market price on an actively traded public corporation" doesn't mean that you can execute it. So it's not perfectly valid, to the point where you need specialist knowledge to even know at what rate you can expect to get that turned into liquid cash, or convince the seller to accept shares at their market value, which not all sellers will be willing to do. I'm sort of confused why you don't see any issues with that definition of wealth, when the simple act of attempting to exercise that wealth suddenly means you have less of it? The same is not true of cash for example...

A more accurate measure might be, "number of shares owned x current market price on an actively traded public corporation with a rate of loss over a specified time period, where if you wish to access the money faster, the rate of loss will increase based on this model" or something to that effect. I'm sure someone who actually knows the intricacies of this will be able to chime in with the expected amount of money you will end up with given that size of equity stake to some specified error margin.

> I asked before why anybody would want to spend $180 billion in a single day.

Well if you take spend as a transfer of wealth, then I mentioned a divorce which would fit as a significant wealth transfer that happens the instant the document is signed, Inheritance would be another.

> Bill Gates is in the slow process

The fact that you are describing it as slow is an impediment it may not be much of one, but it is an impediment. These are those weeds.

Re: Wealth Shown to Scale

#83
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biden's promise has already morphed into "household's making more than $400,000", not individuals. Suddenly all those dual tech worker couples in Silicon Valley are wealthy!

Dual tech worker couples making more than $400k in Silicon Valley are wealthy, and always have been. There's no suddenly about it. They aren't ultrawealthy members of the capitalist class, sure. But they are definitely wealthy, and pretending that they aren't is just phenomenally out of touch.

I don’t disagree but plenty of people I know who voted for Biden didn’t think it applied to them.

$400k per year barely lets you buy a home in the Bay Area.

And regardless, what makes you think they’ll stop at $400k? That’s the point. Eventually a tax bill gets passed some couple making $150k need to “pay their fair share”.

Re: Wealth Shown to Scale

#84
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, in theory at least, belongs to and serves the people as a whole. Not one single solitary exclusive and extraordinarily privileged human being.

In theory. In practice, this wealth is controlled and overseen by privately owned commercial banks that look out for the interest of their owners, i.e. primarily the super-wealthy.

Would that wealth be more or less accountable to the people at large if it were in a small number of private hands?

Re: Wealth Shown to Scale

#85
post #82
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>we don't spend much time going into the weeds of how that number came into being Because number of shares owned x current market price on an actively traded public corporation just isn't all that complicated. Where are the weeds? Using $ as a measure of wealth whether liquid or not is absolutely normal in all sorts of contexts. I struggle to see why anyone would object >absorb all that wealth instantly. I asked befo…

> Where are the weeds? I've been describing them? "number of shares owned x current market price on an actively traded public corporation" doesn't mean that you can execute it. So it's not perfectly valid, to the point where you need specialist knowledge to even know at what rate you can expect to get that turned into liquid cash, or convince the seller to accept shares at their market value, which not all sellers wi…

>I've been describing them?

I really dont think you have. You've been describing a hypothetical weed that doesnt manifest IRL.

>doesn't mean that you can execute it.

Coz you defined "execute it" in such a wildly unrealistic way that in no way resembles how any person actually or would want to "execute" that level of wealth.

>I'm sort of confused why you don't see any issues with that definition of wealth

Coz I'd never want to spend $180 billion of wealth in a single day either. The more wealth I have the more I'd want to draw out spending it.

>the simple act of attempting to exercise that wealth suddenly means you have less of it?

That is the point of liquidating your wealth and spending is it not?

>Well if you take spend as a transfer of wealth

They aren't the same. "Spending" wealth typically requires liquidation.

>divorce which would fit as a significant wealth transfer that happens the instant the document is signed

You are confusing liquidity and wealth again, I think. Bezos's wife wasnt given ~40bn in cash. No monetary transaction took place.

>The fact that you are describing it as slow is an impediment

It's slow because Bill Gates wants to spend the rest of his life spending his fortune. Your presupposition is seemingly that although he is doing this the wealth he is and will spend "isnt quite real" or "should be discounted" because he can't squeeze all that spending into one day.

Is that correct? Please, indulge me by answering this question directly.

Re: Wealth Shown to Scale

#86

xkcd's "Money" graphic gives a sense of other value comparisons, in a somewhat logarithmic sense, ranging from $1 to the roughly $2.4 quadrillion dollars of all human economic activity to date (as of 2012 when the infographic was made). https://xkcd.com/980/

Genuinely curious question. How do you guys pull xkcd comics just like that? Do You save interesting comics for future use or do you remember the comic and google it to find it?

Some I remember generally. A very few I recall directly ("Duty Calls" is 386, as in the Intle chip.)

"Money" made an impression at the time. I DDG'd "xkcd money" to pull the URL.

Other times I just suspect that there's a relevant xkcd and try some keywords.

Re: Wealth Shown to Scale

#87
post #12

I disagree on the the thrust of the argument - that people (including comparatively wealthy individuals like doctors and lawyers) oppose changes to tackle wealth inequality because they don’t understand the gulf of wealth between them and the ultra rich. In my experience it has nothing to do with that - rather these people know that they will ultimately end up as the main target for any such law, not these billionair…

This is absolutely it. Any taxes on just the ultra wealthy raise so little money for the rest of the population that any large scale money raising requires taxes on doctors, lawyers, engineers, small business owners, etc. Pro-government spending advocates don’t like to emphasize this because people become a lot less supportive of these things when they see members of their own community getting hit.

> Any taxes on just the ultra wealthy raise so little money for the rest of the population that any large scale money raising requires taxes on doctors, lawyers, engineers, small business owners, etc.

That's very much untrue. What is true is that no one even bothers reducing the favorable tax treatment of the ultrawealthy, only taxing high-end labor income and pretending. As long as both long-term capital gains and pass-through business income are extremely tax-favored, it doesn't matter what rates or brackets you set for normal income, you arent really taxing the ultrawealthy. You could raise tremendous revenue by eliminating those favorable categories and treating all income as income, and only raising nominal rates by adding new brackets above the current top bracket. The reason that isn't done isn't that you can't raise enough revenue that way, its because the ultrawealthy are very good at propagandizing that the forms of income they earn vastly disproportionately ought to be untouchable.

Re: Wealth Shown to Scale

#88
Why is it a problem for Jeff Bezos to have this much wealth?

As a human society, we produce and we consume things. It sucks if some people consume a lot and not enough is left for others. I'd rather see us pile on people who overconsume rather than on those who overproduce.

Re: Wealth Shown to Scale

#89

> No single human needs or deserves this much wealth. Why not?

Yes. That was a rather arrogant stab of jealousy. Big piles of concentrated wealth sometimes gets spent on important projects that governments (ie. normal people) won't or can't do.

Let's just pray that our feudal overlords invests wisely!

Re: Wealth Shown to Scale

#90
post #85
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where are the weeds? I've been describing them? "number of shares owned x current market price on an actively traded public corporation" doesn't mean that you can execute it. So it's not perfectly valid, to the point where you need specialist knowledge to even know at what rate you can expect to get that turned into liquid cash, or convince the seller to accept shares at their market value, which not all sellers wi…

>I've been describing them? I really dont think you have. You've been describing a hypothetical weed that doesnt manifest IRL. >doesn't mean that you can execute it. Coz you defined "execute it" in such a wildly unrealistic way that in no way resembles how any person actually or would want to "execute" that level of wealth. >I'm sort of confused why you don't see any issues with that definition of wealth Coz I'd neve…

You're making a lot of short points without actually describing any reasoning behind them.

If you just want to disagree that's fine, but I was actually looking for a discussion? For example:

>>I'm sort of confused why you don't see any issues with that definition of wealth

>>the simple act of attempting to exercise that wealth suddenly means you have less of it?

>Yes, that is kind of the point of spending.

I don't understand why you're trying to say here, I'm saying in a situation I want to give someone $100 cash, I would be upset if the process of handing them the money results in them getting $80 cash. When I say "suddenly means you have less of it?" I don't mean I have less money, that's obvious, I mean the recipient receives less money than I expected or they expected. I can absolutely hand over the equity, but as I said it may not be accepted.

>>Well if you take spend as a transfer of wealth

>They are actually not the same thing at all.

Ok, how would you describe spend? How is a wealth transfer specially distinct from spending.

You keep handwaving away the fact that there is a difference between an equity valued at X and cash of X value. There is a difference, such that you can't treat them as the same thing. We merely use the current market value as a way of computing it, but it is in no way pinned to that value.

-- EDIT as responding to parent edit --

> Your presupposition is seemingly that although he is doing this the wealth he is and will spend "isnt quite real" or "should be discounted" because he can't squeeze all that spending into one day.

> Is that correct? Please, indulge me by answering this question directly.

I'm merely pointing out that the numbers we bandy about aren't accurate.

Ultimately wealth is buying power.

If we're talking about someone who owns $100k in Amazon stock at the current market value, I think we'd be happy to say that the person in question has $100k in buying power, they could sell all of that stock and then buy $100k worth of goods with it.

Someone who has $100B in Amazon stock can't do that, they're buying power isn't $100B. Now what exactly it is, is a fascinating question. I'm saying that based on different specified timescales it's different, if that person wanted to get their hands on $10B in 1 month, 6 months and 1 year, they would have to sell a different quantity of their equity stake to achieve that. In fact if the underlying asset goes up in value over that time period then it may even be worth more. However I'm talking in terms of "discounting" because a lot of assets value goes down if you try and trade them, primarily because the seller wants to buy them at less than their "current value".

So to summarise, I'm not questioning the "realness" of his wealth, I'm simply stating that at those quantities of illiquid wealth, how to actually utilise the buying power of your wealth is not that straightforward. The fact that we use "number of shares owned x current market price on an actively traded public corporation" is just a way to get a nice easy number that hides a lot of interesting detail.

On this topic, there was a really interesting money stuff article that went into how private equity firms were selling small stakes of their company to "price" their equity suddenly allowing their owners to declare themselves billionaires. They sold some of their assets, but by allowing the market to "price" them we accept they now have more wealth.

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