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What happened to all the female developers?

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Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#261

Post by bugsy »

scilro wrote: post #257
temphn wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole endless search for the reason why "women aren't in computing" is just a modern day version of epicycle theory. In ancient times, they couldn't admit that the earth went around the sun, so they came up with the increasingly baroque epicycle theory, where planets were postulated to do loop-de-loops just so that no one would have to concede heliocentrism. Today we face a similar taboo, held for similar quasi-…

Your argument falls apart when you posit "worse at math" as an essentialist trait caused by genetics, without so much as a link to a single study showing this. Saying "Women are just more social on average" does not prove that it is genetic. You can probably name at least one woman amazing at math, or one woman amazing at programming. The fact that you can name even one counterexample refutes the proposition that all…

Interesting. I wonder what percentage of Fields medals have been earned by women mathematicians?

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#262

Post by rjd »

nl wrote: post #254
sapphirecat wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The prejudicial reaction to buzz words is one of the things that I've found really weird in the programming fields. At one level, like Google aggregating signals, responding to an abundance of buzz words is one of several ways to classify a given posting as promising or not. A few buzz words could be fine, but a company actually saying they "are building every website in AJAX, MVC, REST, and HTML 5" all in the same…

This is wrong. What you call "Buzzwords" many would call technical jargon. Jargon is a shorthand way of communicating quickly with others who understand it. You see "Buzzwords" in are building every website in AJAX, MVC, REST, and HTML 5 , where as I think "I wonder if the MVC is a front end Javascript MVC framework operating against the REST backend, or if the model & controller parts are shared by the REST and AJAX…

Theres a definite difference between a framework description and a buzzword over loaded blurb, placement in the ad for example can change the tone of the whole message.

So starting with "we are an HTML 5 AJAX shop..." I would roll my eyes, where as compared to "Our stack makes heavy use of REST methodologies..." I would mull the description.

I guess its a level of understanding that goes into the use of the terms.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#263

Post by fauigerzigerk »

But the most common explanation is that the rise of personal computers led computing culture to be associated with the stereotype of the eccentric, antisocial, male “hacker.”

I think that's right, but the question is why girls did not use the opportunity that presented itself and put their own cultural stamp on it.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#264

Post by 6ren »

Do the influxes of women correlate with industry stability?

Women tend to not like to waste their time, but men will take high risks for high returns (according to http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2767867). So, men will explore, discover, invent. Some get rich; most get nothing. Women prefer reliable reward for effort e.g. law and medicine.

But the computer industry has been characterized by periodic disruptions of new hardware (mainframe, minicomputer, desktop), and while those revolutions were opportunities to make a fortune, they were not stable. Currently, the early land-grab of the web seems to have subsided and its future looks secure (e.g. smartphones aren't dethroning it). If we have entered a period of stability, it may be more attractive to women.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#265

Post by Jem »

maeon3 wrote: post #211

Of all of the female computer programmers I've gotten to know well and worked with (maybe 4 or 5), none of them were half as good as the average male programmer I've gotten to know. Programming is, and always will be a male profession. The only thing that will change this is if we force women to learn programming, but even then you can't make them like it. I think the solution here is to realize that there is a physi…

Of all of the male programmers I've worked with, none of them were half as good as they thought they were.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#266

Post by chalst »

bugsy wrote: post #261
scilro wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument falls apart when you posit "worse at math" as an essentialist trait caused by genetics, without so much as a link to a single study showing this. Saying "Women are just more social on average" does not prove that it is genetic. You can probably name at least one woman amazing at math, or one woman amazing at programming. The fact that you can name even one counterexample refutes the proposition that all…

Interesting. I wonder what percentage of Fields medals have been earned by women mathematicians?

None, I think.

The Wikipedia category for Women mathematicians [1] has 125 pages, many of which are to women who were not professional mathematicians.

If in response to the challenge "name at least one woman amazing at math" you don't think of Emmy Noether, then you are not all that interested in maths.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Women_mathematicians

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#267

Post by bugsy »

chalst wrote: post #266
bugsy wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I wonder what percentage of Fields medals have been earned by women mathematicians?

None, I think. The Wikipedia category for Women mathematicians [1] has 125 pages, many of which are to women who were not professional mathematicians. If in response to the challenge "name at least one woman amazing at math" you don't think of Emmy Noether, then you are not all that interested in maths. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Women_mathematicians

That is a false claim. Your logic is faulty.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#268

Post by temphn »

scilro wrote: post #257
temphn wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole endless search for the reason why "women aren't in computing" is just a modern day version of epicycle theory. In ancient times, they couldn't admit that the earth went around the sun, so they came up with the increasingly baroque epicycle theory, where planets were postulated to do loop-de-loops just so that no one would have to concede heliocentrism. Today we face a similar taboo, held for similar quasi-…

Your argument falls apart when you posit "worse at math" as an essentialist trait caused by genetics, without so much as a link to a single study showing this. Saying "Women are just more social on average" does not prove that it is genetic. You can probably name at least one woman amazing at math, or one woman amazing at programming. The fact that you can name even one counterexample refutes the proposition that all…

For references on the biology, read Simon Baron-Cohen or Louann Brizendine.

Regarding your statistical "argument", obviously the example of Lisa Leslie does not mean the median height of women is greater than or equal to the median height of men. Overlap does not imply equality.

I often wonder why people who can understand fine statistical distinctions in other contexts, and are capable of calculating over/under representations down to three decimal points, lose about 50 IQ points on this topic.

It is similar to the selective and highly asymmetric demands for evidence. I assure you, there are reams of papers on Pubmed concerning the effect of fetal testosterone levels on spatial reasoning. Indeed, there are many more such technical papers than there are well-controlled studies on the disparate impact effects of "competitive job postings".

This hard evidence differential obtains in spite of the fact that researchers must conduct their studies under dark of night, lest they meet the fate of Larry Summers.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#269

Post by zemanel »

rjd wrote: post #177
mapgrep wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She didn't say she was put off by competition, she said she was put off by competitive language in the job listing. She recommended more focus on the collaborative side of the internship - mentorship, line by line code review, and being part of decisionmaking. "Things that have to do with collaboration and learning appeal a lot more to female candidates." Couching something in mainly competitive terms does not just a…

Indeed, I never after for a job which is worded competitively. I done a lot of contracting over the years. Usually 3-6 month placements and I've learnt to spot a company culture from the ad. Sort of like after you've been looking at house ads for a while you start to understand the lies that are going on. Disclaimer: before reading on I'm jaded and bitter from years of dealign with a/holes, liars, and bad contracts.…

you just possibly described 99.9% of the jobs ads i've seen, the 0.1% being "X is looking for a Y developer in Z" :)

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#270

Post by rjd »

zemanel wrote: post #269
rjd wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I never after for a job which is worded competitively. I done a lot of contracting over the years. Usually 3-6 month placements and I've learnt to spot a company culture from the ad. Sort of like after you've been looking at house ads for a while you start to understand the lies that are going on. Disclaimer: before reading on I'm jaded and bitter from years of dealign with a/holes, liars, and bad contracts.…

you just possibly described 99.9% of the jobs ads i've seen, the 0.1% being "X is looking for a Y developer in Z" :)

Yeah I find getting work hard now, not because I can't get the jobs, but because I don't want to work in a lot of places. Getting old I suppose, lost the drive.

You have to take those jobs to find your niche sometimes. Thats why I put the disclaimer at the top, its my point of view, everyone has to find there own, find what makes them happy. Some people need there egos stroked, some people love high pressure, everyones different.

Having the courage to quit is a big thing, I remember the first time I quit I almost vomited, my last job I was yelling at a director of the company. I had the courage to stand up for myself and faith, but you have to earn that, most people aren't born with it.

Networking has always been the best for me, every big break I've had has been over a drink at the pub. Which is easy for me as I'm an extrovert and have a good sense of humor, so people take a liking to me.

But theres way to network if you're not extroverted, I attended programming groups and go to presentations, heaps of my friends don't leave the house except for those meetings.

Theres heaps of tips about helping in community projects (even just testing), twitter, a blog.

Infact friend of mine got head hunted for £300,000 because he ran a blog and had become a subject matter expert on security and identity, so ads aren't the only way.

For the love of good don't let me put you off applying just because Im bitter and jaded ;)

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