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Apps Getting Worse

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Re: Apps Getting Worse

#291
post #9

The ecosystem has also lost its mojo, and Apple is the one that killed it. The good old days of really good, dedicated mac software studios are over. Made by Sofa, Delicious Monster, SubEthaEdit, TextMate, Panic Inc, Rogue Amoeba, Strange Flavour. These were really great software studios that really upheld a standard of excellence for Mac software. But how are you supposed to keep that up when apple forces you into a…

Electron has killed it. Fast browsers have killed it. Saas killed it. There are many problems with Apple’s stores, but I don’t see how this is one.

Why did Electron kill it? And don't say size, because people gladly install 0.5TB games at the drop of a hat.

ElectronJS is brilliant, it just needs to go on a diet. It truly is write-once-run-everywhere, which makes my life worlds easier as a dev supporting three OSes.

But it doesn't make your GUI pretty: you still need a designer. And because of that, I miss native GUIs where the design is consistent.

I would ding Electron because it facilitates a diaspora of GUI design when we actually need consistency.

Re: Apps Getting Worse

#292

A staggering percentage of applications today, regardless of platform (native, mobile, web) can be fully implemented, as regards their UI, with the usual set of UI widgets such as text boxes, dropdown lists, radio boxes, buttons, etc. These widgets are available in any toolkit or browser in highly polished and performant implementations that require very little from the developer in terms of fiddling with the UI. So…

> My favourite, UI widgets that cannot stay where they where originally placed, resulting in failures to click them as they keep moving/reflowing under the button. Because the toolkit decided to reflow while the user was already allowed to interact with it.

This is absolutely the worst thing that interfaces do. It’s terrible, I hate it so much.

Re: Apps Getting Worse

#293
post #21

I remember hearing a talk by Bill Gates a long time ago where he said the biggest competitor for Word was previous versions of the program. That is no longer true with forced updates. Granted, there are many reasons why it is not practical these days for old versions to be a competitor, but that would be a good message to companies that some of their new "innovations" may not have been a good idea.

Competition forces you to make a good product or die and be replaced by a company that does. When previous versions were a source of competition, it was likely easier for companies to notice their mistakes and correct them. With SaaS, a company can coast along on brand recognition for awhile, slowly become zombified, until one day all of your customers switch to an up-and-coming competitor.

Re: Apps Getting Worse

#294

> It’s obvious. Every high-tech company has people called “Product Managers” (PMs) whose job it is to work with customers and management and engineers to define what products should do. No PM in history has ever said “This seems to be working pretty well, let’s leave it the way it is.” Because that’s not bold. That’s not visionary. That doesn’t get you promoted This mentality isn't unique to product managers. Mobile…

I'm an Android developer who despises Kotlin and all the other trendy stuff. I often get laughed at for my views. However, my apps are ridiculously slim and fast, so there's that. Oh and I don't have a job. It really feels to me as if developers these days care much more about the development process itself, and how their code looks, than about the end product of their work that the users see. Same for designers — th…

I would wholeheartedly agree with that. Developers don't talk about enabling people or making lives better anymore, they don't talk about helping people work more efficiently or use their computer more effectively. Developers treat their users like cattle now. They addict them and herd them and farm their eyeballs for ad-revenue. They don't program to make the world a better place, they program because it's a fun way to make entirely too much money at their favorite hobby: reinventing and overcomplicating the wheel.

Re: Apps Getting Worse

#295

Audible. Just let me start listening to my book. Don't force me into "Discover" every time I open the app. Discover requires a network access and keeps me from doing anything else until it times out if my connection is not good. It could show me Discover when I close a book I just finished. That would make sense and not be intrusive and rude. No, they have to shove the monetization attempt in my face over and over. W…

I'm sure there's some engagement KPI metric that increased from forcing it in front of users. And even if it's a worse UX experience and the increase is due to frustrated users attempting to navigate away from Discover, you know those pesky details won't be included in their product and engineering "wins" ;)

Re: Apps Getting Worse

#296
I have a Samsung TV and use the YouTube app every day. You can see when they update it, the fonts change, layout changes, etc. usually subtle stuff but sometimes there's a big change.

Anyway, for a while they had the feature where you could hold the main button on the remote while on a video, and a context menu would pop up and you could save it to watch later.

One day, that feature went away. So now you have to play the video, watch 1-2 ads, then go to the menu and add it to watch later from there.

Such a pain in the ass. I wonder why they got rid of it.

Re: Apps Getting Worse

#297
As a user I've definitely seen this. But as a PM (product manager) in tech I have not. Most PMs I know push back against UI changes that UI/UX experts push forward because we know (I've been a PM in this position) it will annoy users and add very little value.

Re: Apps Getting Worse

#298

The worst offender recently in my opinion is Spotify on desktop. It used to be that when you clicked on an artists page you would see all the music tracks listed. Now it's all buried deep in and you have to search through the individual albums. Even the list of albums itself is not shown on the main artist page, you have to click "See Discography" first. The "Home" page is even worse. Where is my discover weekly play…

I hope people will use Spotify as a case study in how to fuck up a UI over time. The service itself is fine, I quite like some of the music it finds for me on discover, but the UI is on a slow death march towards complete uselessness, and some features have always been hopelessly broken (queuing). From a business standpoint I find it fascinating. It's about as perfect as an example it gets of "if it ain't broke, don'…

> At some point they should've just said "welp, don't need a UI team any more" and just never touched it again

I work at a tech company, and I’ll offer my take on why this didn’t happen.

Some growth oriented organizations incentivize product people to keep iterating and “improving” a product. Then, product people are on the hook to show some kind of measurable improvement in some metric. Otherwise, they miss out on promotions, or worst case, they get pushed out.

What I’ve seen happen is some elegant, simple UX that no one ever complained about suddenly morphs into a convoluted, busy mess of its former self. But hey, as long as some A/B test shows an increase in click through rate or total engagement time - great! Mission accomplished!

The root cause is these teams and product people don’t really obsess with the product or the customer experience. They’re incentivized towards optimizing some metric - which at face value appears like optimizing it would provide a better product. But it turns out that’s not the case.

These people all get promoted, pat themselves on the back, and move on. Slowly, the engineering teams realize that these business requirements and stringent launch dates led to a convoluted architecture. We can no longer move quickly or truly innovate. It honestly turns into death by a thousand cuts, where the second and third order effects of the incentive structure ultimately results in a not so great experience. It actually becomes increasingly expensive to fix the past mistakes… the reason could be compatibility or versioning issues, a mess of dependencies and services that no one really understands, or even just a general fear of breaking things and not having clarity on how to get back on track.

It might be that team A has the right senior leadership, but they rely on team or org B to fix issues or update some code. But that other team or org has their own product people, with their own priorities. They couldn’t care less.

What’s worse is that no one is really willing to call out these issues, at least not on the record. Sometimes it’s disengagement and other times it’s fear of coming off as a negative person. Because the immense complexity is too difficult to solve by one person alone, and they honestly don’t have a solution that people would really get behind.

Slowly the engineers burn out or feel disengaged. The great engineering talent ends up leaving. You end up with the career people or the disengaged people who are coasting by. At the end of the day, the customer suffers. We stopped obsessing with the customer experience. It’s turned overwhelmingly into cross team or cross org politics, salesmanship, and often times people focusing on the wrong problems (inventing solutions to problems that don’t even exist) while the obvious thing is right in front of them.

Okay I’ll stop my rant now.

Re: Apps Getting Worse

#299

> It’s obvious. Every high-tech company has people called “Product Managers” (PMs) whose job it is to work with customers and management and engineers to define what products should do. No PM in history has ever said “This seems to be working pretty well, let’s leave it the way it is.” Because that’s not bold. That’s not visionary. That doesn’t get you promoted This mentality isn't unique to product managers. Mobile…

> Android developers wanted to rewrite everything in Kotlin.

Probably because Google says Kotlin is the way. You can't use Compose, Google's reboot of the View system, from Java. Why did google create Compose? To eliminate a decade of cruft and problems for one, so congrats ... now your developers are stuck with it.

Re: Apps Getting Worse

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spotify on Android degraded in the same way. It's a garbage of an app nowadays. I mean, after many years of not using their service, I recently had to spend a good half hour in front of their app, trying to figure out how to a) list all available songs of a given artist, and b) play one of them. And I couldn't do it. This task is pretty much impossible with their current design. All because, instead of treating their…

I don't know what Spotify is doing with the Android app. They seem to be pushing podcasts really hard and there doesn't seem to be a way to stop the app from doing that. I didn't enjoy using it at all. I finally bit the bullet last month and moved to YouTube Music. Migration was a pain but I find the generated playlists better and the UX less painful to use.

Yet they don't even offer a top level menu item for podcasts, you have to dig though "My library", which is infuriating.
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