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What happened to all the female developers?

blog.fogcreek.com

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Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#241
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but you're gonna be crushed by debt and won't be starting making money until you're in your mid 30s. Programmers come out way, way ahead once you consider the lost opportunity and cost of all those extra years doctors spend in school.

People who say this haven't done the math or looked at real salary numbers. The average salary for a cardiologist is $308,000/yr. The average salary for a software engineer is $58,000/yr. The cardiologist makes six times as much money. Even with a 12 year head start the programmer comes out behind. Medical school debt can be paid off in 2-5 years. In addition, the cardiologist can keep practicing into her 60s whereas…

Averages here are worthless. Is that $300k with or without insurance factored in? (In Florida "General surgeons paid in between $90,000 per year and $175,000 per year or more. OB/GYNs once again could expect the highest rates, with liability coverage ranging from $100,000 to $200,000 per year." Other states are less.) I'm told those in the medical profession have high salaries and correspondingly high insurance rates, which makes their salary much less than what it appears. There's also the cost of equipment if they need that. Similarly I'd like to control for location (which goes along with insurance costs anyway): a $60k job in the slums may be worth $100k in the Valley due to living costs alone.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who say this haven't done the math or looked at real salary numbers. The average salary for a cardiologist is $308,000/yr. The average salary for a software engineer is $58,000/yr. The cardiologist makes six times as much money. Even with a 12 year head start the programmer comes out behind. Medical school debt can be paid off in 2-5 years. In addition, the cardiologist can keep practicing into her 60s whereas…

Comparing the average software engineer to a cardiologist is just silly. If you're going to select a small, highly skilled portion of the medical field to analyze, you should compare it to a skilled portion of the software engineering field. Let's draw a more valid comparison: that between cardiologists and graduates of good engineering programs. Graduates from top CS programs are making significantly more than 58K f…

22.5 years after high school is age 40, not age 50. Doctors start pulling (small) salary 8 years after high school.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#243
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buzz words are a keen sign you are going to be working with a bunch of sales men. The prejudicial reaction to buzz words is one of the things that I've found really weird in the programming fields. Often, a buzz word was a legitimate technical term just a few years, or a couple of decades ago. It's not the word, it's how it's used. Rejecting someone because they use a given buzz word is just prejudice. It just means…

I know where you're coming from, and you are right. Its context. I find buzz words tend to upcoming marketing terms, perhaps we are discussing slightly different things.. not sure. Older buzz terms aren't a problem as they have either been stabilized or rejected. But where you see "savvy" I generally see naive. I find people that get hooked up on buzzwords are younger people trying to make a mark and people trying to…

But where you see "savvy" I generally see naive.

Yes, but that's a level of complication that wasn't relevant to the point I was making.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#244
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should it be a big deal if you interrupt your career for a few years (whether to have a family or to travel the world...somehow I bet the second would be seen as ok in tech circles)? A good programmer can pick up a new technology in a couple of months. If you are hiring based on candidates winning resume buzzword bingo, you are going to get crappy candidates anyway. Hire for intelligence and capability and five y…

You take a break for some years come back and see who was your peer sometime back is now your boss. How would you feel? The feeling of underachievement especially when you know you were helpless to prevent that, hurts! It would hurt me atleast. If I knew I would face a such situation I will rather take up some other profession.

This is exactly the senseless obsession with competition that the article is complaining about.

My boss is a woman who was my peer in school and has children now. She is one of the best techies I have ever worked with and I love having her aboard.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#245
post #181
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't make any sense to me (not you, the statement). Some of the most competitive people I know are women. And if you've been on a university campus it's stacked top to bottom with women competing for highly selective majors. CS and Sft.Eng. seems to be an outlier in this, but chem, bio, business, and econ are populated with really smart graduate women. Even when I was in highschool 10 years ago the top 10 stu…

so what is it, then?

The computers.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#246
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traditionally, dominant groups have often invoked (fake) claims of a naturally fixed order to protect, justify and market the status quo. For example, this line of reasoning has historically been used to assert that black people are a subhuman race incapable of higher intellectual thought and that women shouldn't be allowed to vote on the grounds that they are immature and hysterical by nature. Another reason why I b…

For one, there are observed gender disparities in certain things (you mentioned spacial reasoning) which there is no apparent or plausible political agenda in artificially creating. In fact, the predominant political agenda is largely the idea that there are no differences between men and women. For another, disparities are often observed in infants. What mechanism do you propose communicates subtle social norms to i…

I understand your belief, I just don't share it. But coming back to the issue that started this discussion: is it your contention that there are very few female developers because of biological reasons? If so (all pop evolutionary psychology and sociopolitical agendas aside) that's a depressing thought, because that would mean there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it. Without even trying, we already give up. It actually makes me uncomfortable that women are so extremely underrepresented in a field that I care about.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#247

And she said that one of the things that happens is that women don’t even think they’re qualified for something because it’s advertised in competitive language. The language of competition not only doesn’t appeal to many women, it actually puts them off. This doesn't make sense to me because easily the most competitive path I've ever seen is premed. Almost all of the premeds I know are competing for the best grades,…

There's a core issue here I point out to my male colleagues, which I find to be true of myself as a female developer: as a stereotypical trait (I am generalising here, beware!) girls don't find sitting in front of a computer alone all that interesting. I personally value my personal time alone and am fairly unique in this respect (my boyfriend would love it if I wanted to hang out and work with him! But I focus best…

I don't know where you are finding yourself totally surrounded by hetero males in software these days.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#248

And she said that one of the things that happens is that women don’t even think they’re qualified for something because it’s advertised in competitive language. The language of competition not only doesn’t appeal to many women, it actually puts them off. This doesn't make sense to me because easily the most competitive path I've ever seen is premed. Almost all of the premeds I know are competing for the best grades,…

Med school appeals to the motherly side of chicks..in fact all of healthcare appeals to our motherly side

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing the average software engineer to a cardiologist is just silly. If you're going to select a small, highly skilled portion of the medical field to analyze, you should compare it to a skilled portion of the software engineering field. Let's draw a more valid comparison: that between cardiologists and graduates of good engineering programs. Graduates from top CS programs are making significantly more than 58K f…

22.5 years after high school is age 40, not age 50. Doctors start pulling (small) salary 8 years after high school.

I'm pretty sure it's 12 years of schooling after college. 4 years of medical school plus 6-8 years of fellowship. Thus 12 after college + 3 years to pay back debt + 7.5 years to get even is age 22 + 22.5 years = 45. Of course the reality is that someone who has worked at Microsoft for as long as the guy in the comparison is going to average more than 100K a year in compensation over 22.5 years. So my figure of the salaries evening out at 50 is pretty reasonable I think.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#250
Asking why there aren't more female developers is like asking why there aren't more guys who go into nursing or more guys who wanna be fashion designers or a chef.

Perhaps its personal interest, societal view that industries like games and computers are more masculine...

Honestly, who cares if the developer is a chick or a guy as long as the application or site being built is useful

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