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The Babylonians used Pythagorean ideas long before Pythagoras

economist.com

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Re: The Babylonians used Pythagorean ideas long before Pythagoras

#31

Post by Xplune13 »

newyankee wrote: post #20
Xplune13 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. As an Indian it is just sad that there are people that do this. The effect of such articles is actually the loss of faith in the real findings of those ancient people caused by exaggerated claims presented in these articles. There are so many actual great things and findings written in those texts, but it seems like people are either in the ship of "Everything is in Vedas" or "All this isn't worth researchin…

Per this source, in their own words Fibonacci credits Indian mathematician for his series. There is a great deal of disservice done to Eastern sources in the history of Science & Mathematics which is mostly because modern versions of these mostly skipped these places. https://trueindologytwitter.wordpress.com/2020/03/31/indian-...

No doubt about it. There are A LOT of things that aren't credited correctly in the modern world, but these articles that I referenced aren't helping the situation at all. On the contrary, they're worsening the state all these topics are in with their exaggerated claims which make people question the integrity of the real work itself.

There should be thorough studies about Indology (at least in far greater number than there are right now) without all these click-baity articles associated with it.

Re: The Babylonians used Pythagorean ideas long before Pythagoras

#32

Post by ttyprintk »

babesh wrote: post #16
ttyprintk wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the most important point modern readers need to make. If we discover a proof earlier than Thales, regardless of whether it’s Greek, we might revise the discovery of trig. But this is about certain triples being used practically in Babylon (who recorded everything) without any recorded interest in the relationship between triples. Because Greeks first recorded the important part —- the proof —- I think…

I think that there are several ideas that are both powerful and that people muddle when they talk about mathematics. Also the talk is often tinged with cultural pride. The ideas are conceptualization, generalization, and rigor. The Pythagorean triples are a conceptualization that for certain right triangles, the squares of the three sides obey a relationship. The Pythagorean theorem is both 1. a generalization that t…

About conceptualization, my understanding is that ancient Greek followers of religious leader Pythagoras realized that this was not only a relationship between length and area, but a formula for irrational numbers. This might be a claim without evidence, and would not be the first time Western education has tried that.

Babylonians had no problem arriving at solutions to square roots, and a lot of their texts are yet undeciphered. If we find that Babylonians ruminated about irrational numbers, too, then we’re talking about a major revision in the history of math. Until then, to me, the concepts in the Greek treatments are more innovative than the practical usage in Babylon.

I think your take is supported if it turns out people have read way too much into the religion around Pythagoras. I think Pythagoras would be surprised to be famous for a proof when he’d rather be famous for musical scale or some weird ritualistic dance or something. In fact, as mathematicians we might be better served by later proofs, which is implied by your other points, I think.

Re: The Babylonians used Pythagorean ideas long before Pythagoras

#34

Post by Natsu »

ummonk wrote: post #29

So Pythagoras likely didn't even formulate the theorem - he was more into numerology and only cared about sum of squares triplets, not the results about right triangles. On the other hand, we have strong evidence that the Babylonians understood and applied the "Pythagorean" theorem long before Pythagoras lived. Additionally, the first recorded explicit statement of the theorem is actually by the Indian writer Baudhay…

Things get named after the person who popularized something, not generally after the first to discover it.

It's called the Pythagorean theorem because that's where western people who called it that learned it from, the other things being unknown to them.

Re: The Babylonians used Pythagorean ideas long before Pythagoras

#35

Post by mojuba »

oblak wrote: post #24
Koshkin wrote: post #17

This is yet another evidence in favor of the idea that mathematics is not invented but discovered.

During a heated argument, a person I know argued that humanity advanced as fast as it did during the 19th century after aliens invented(!) electricity and gave it to us. Took me a while to process

The aliens lost patience, I can understand them.

Re: The Babylonians used Pythagorean ideas long before Pythagoras

#36

Post by yhoneycomb »

Natsu wrote: post #34
ummonk wrote: post #29

So Pythagoras likely didn't even formulate the theorem - he was more into numerology and only cared about sum of squares triplets, not the results about right triangles. On the other hand, we have strong evidence that the Babylonians understood and applied the "Pythagorean" theorem long before Pythagoras lived. Additionally, the first recorded explicit statement of the theorem is actually by the Indian writer Baudhay…

Things get named after the person who popularized something, not generally after the first to discover it. It's called the Pythagorean theorem because that's where western people who called it that learned it from, the other things being unknown to them.

Whatever. Still a misnomer in my book. With that said, you are free to invent your definition of misnomer if you so desire.

Re: The Babylonians used Pythagorean ideas long before Pythagoras

#37

Post by ummonk »

Natsu wrote: post #34
ummonk wrote: post #29

So Pythagoras likely didn't even formulate the theorem - he was more into numerology and only cared about sum of squares triplets, not the results about right triangles. On the other hand, we have strong evidence that the Babylonians understood and applied the "Pythagorean" theorem long before Pythagoras lived. Additionally, the first recorded explicit statement of the theorem is actually by the Indian writer Baudhay…

Things get named after the person who popularized something, not generally after the first to discover it. It's called the Pythagorean theorem because that's where western people who called it that learned it from, the other things being unknown to them.

Explaining why a misnomer came about isn't an argument for why we should continue to perpetuate it.

Re: The Babylonians used Pythagorean ideas long before Pythagoras

#38

Post by ttyprintk »

babesh wrote: post #26
babesh wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that there are several ideas that are both powerful and that people muddle when they talk about mathematics. Also the talk is often tinged with cultural pride. The ideas are conceptualization, generalization, and rigor. The Pythagorean triples are a conceptualization that for certain right triangles, the squares of the three sides obey a relationship. The Pythagorean theorem is both 1. a generalization that t…

Also, rigor was romantacized. With the exception of The Elements, very little math till the last maybe 200 years had that level of rigor. Newton and Leibniz sure didn't.

This is one of my pet peeves, too, an obsession with referencing the first to try innovative math. Maybe Babylonian root finding is a simplified case of what we call Newton’s method. The minimum level of rigor for a concept to go from theorem to proof is both human and philosophical. We get very little recognition for the mathematicians putting in the hard work, and detrimental recognition for concepts that don’t exactly widen a field of math for innovation.

Recent movements to revise the recognition of Pythagoras are doing the right thing when they acknowledge the path dependence of unbroken written communication of ideas is often mistaken for awarding prestige to a particular institution, educational tradition, or culture.

Re: The Babylonians used Pythagorean ideas long before Pythagoras

#40

Post by dang »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #3

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28062020

Thanks! Macroexpanded:

Australian mathematician discovers applied geometry on 3,700-year-old tablet - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28062020 - Aug 2021 (11 comments)

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