The Principles of Newspeak (1949) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Principles of Newspeak (1949)

#41

Post by JasonFruit » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

dbattaglia wrote: post #4

This appendix, along with the chapters that are except from "The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism", are actually my favorite parts of 1984. I enjoyed how "Principals of Newspeak" is written in a past tense when describing the language and the events of year 1984, it feels like a glimmer of hope that somehow mankind did indeed escape the horrific dystopian world otherwise presented in the book.

I take the past tense as meaning the book was a fait accompli, not as an analysis from a fictional future.

Re: The Principles of Newspeak (1949)

#42

Post by slickrick216 » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

woopwoop wrote: post #30

dalbasal wrote: post #28

Esperanto probably inspired Orwell on this, at least to an extent. He knew several Esperantists. Most of the "A vocabulary" rules are similar, like valuing regularities. I wonder if he hated esperanto, or just conveniently borrowed the feel of an artificial language from it. To me, the euphemisation aspects of newspeak are the most "orwellian." IE, they're most likely to trigger that reference. Orwell himself complai…

When did he speak out against Trotskyism? He fought with a Trotskyist militia in Spain.

Also animal farm is sympathetic to the Trotskyist position.

Re: The Principles of Newspeak (1949)

#43

Post by deepnotderp » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 6:51 PM UTC

civilized wrote: post #32

lostlogin wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chinese has standardized over time and become more accessible to the masses with each iteration. In the context of state oppression and control of language, using China as an example is very fitting.

China existed and simplified its language before the PRC believe it or not

Like under the Democratic Qin republic?

Re: The Principles of Newspeak (1949)

#44

Post by akomtu » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 6:52 PM UTC

We do have this newspeak, and it's not about that "woke" stuff. It's what we call UFO and magick: mostly meaningless buzzwords now that conceal a whole range of different things in a box labeled as toxic thought waste that any rational person shouldn't even look at. That line of thinking is blocked so efficiently that nobody can pinpoint a single law or rule that prohibits it. This is what competently implemented newspeak looks like.

Re: The Principles of Newspeak (1949)

#45

Post by ad404b8a372f2b9 » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

eplanit wrote: post #22

gotoeleven wrote: post #18

"The purpose of Newspeak was not only to provide a medium of expression for the world-view and mental habits proper to the devotees of Ingsoc, but to make all other modes of thought impossible" I'm genuinely curious do the woke brigades of twitter not have the self awareness to recognize what they're doing? Or do they just not care? Would they be happy with a language designed to make 'harmful' thinking impossible?

It's not the cognitive dissonance that one would assume it to be. They've studied their methods well. Marx and Mao would be proud. https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herse...

I'd think Marx would be turning in his grave. Identity politics only serve to divide the working class when they could come together on more important matters that unite them across party lines.

Re: The Principles of Newspeak (1949)

#46

Post by mannerheim » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

civilized wrote: post #15

Newspeak's goal of a complete regularization of English, and the elimination of all redundant forms, is actually an interesting idea IMO. Business jargon often moves in this direction, e.g. "learnings" instead of "lessons". And it's not always a horrible dystopian idea - Chinese has standardized over time and become more accessible to the masses with each iteration. EDIT: I apologize for my doubleplusungood thoughtcr…

> Chinese has standardized over time and become more accessible to the masses with each iteration.

This is dubious. Taiwan achieved mass literacy using traditional characters. Further, the PRC itself is responsible for shutting down attempts to simplify the written language e.g. romanised newspapers that operated out of Shanghai until the communist takeover.

Re: The Principles of Newspeak (1949)

#47

Post by dalbasal » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

pwdisswordfish8 wrote: post #39

dalbasal wrote: post #28

Esperanto probably inspired Orwell on this, at least to an extent. He knew several Esperantists. Most of the "A vocabulary" rules are similar, like valuing regularities. I wonder if he hated esperanto, or just conveniently borrowed the feel of an artificial language from it. To me, the euphemisation aspects of newspeak are the most "orwellian." IE, they're most likely to trigger that reference. Orwell himself complai…

Which politicians are euphemisms?

I know this is a grammar troll and I'm breaking a rule, but this made me giggle, and then try to find examples.

Re: The Principles of Newspeak (1949)

#48

Post by Y_Y » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #36

dbattaglia wrote: post #4

This appendix, along with the chapters that are except from "The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism", are actually my favorite parts of 1984. I enjoyed how "Principals of Newspeak" is written in a past tense when describing the language and the events of year 1984, it feels like a glimmer of hope that somehow mankind did indeed escape the horrific dystopian world otherwise presented in the book.

Unfortunately there is no way to know whether the future from which newspeak is in the past, is not even more horrifically dystopian. Imagine arriving on a seemingly dead planet and discovering this article about newspeak on a primitive but still working library computer in a museum. Elsewhere in the museum a slowly decaying advanced compute core still executes the corrupted remains of the last of the human conscious…

> Unfortunately there is no way to know whether the future ... is not even more horrifically dystopian.

I agree.

Re: The Principles of Newspeak (1949)

#49

Post by revolvingocelot » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 7:00 PM UTC

detaro wrote: post #9

anonymousiam wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you define 'leftist'? Orwell also wrote Animal Farm, which is critical of communism.

How would you define "leftist" in a way that doesn't contain Orwell? Animal Farm fits very well into > opposed totalitarian societies

One of the ways in which modern Western newspeak works is the relentless conflation of "socialism", "communism", and "totalitarianism". Their current project, as far as I can tell, is to fold everything left of blue-dog Democrat into the definition.

Re: The Principles of Newspeak (1949)

#50

Post by dalbasal » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 7:02 PM UTC

woopwoop wrote: post #30

dalbasal wrote: post #28

Esperanto probably inspired Orwell on this, at least to an extent. He knew several Esperantists. Most of the "A vocabulary" rules are similar, like valuing regularities. I wonder if he hated esperanto, or just conveniently borrowed the feel of an artificial language from it. To me, the euphemisation aspects of newspeak are the most "orwellian." IE, they're most likely to trigger that reference. Orwell himself complai…

When did he speak out against Trotskyism? He fought with a Trotskyist militia in Spain.

IDK if he quite "spoke out" but he mentions them unfavourably in a few essays, sometimes indirectly. The one that comes to mind is "notes on nationalism" which IIRCC has it listed along with republicanism, zionism & pacifism as examples of obsessive nationalism existing in the contemporary British left of his day.

Hi did fight with a Trotskyist militia which included many republican volunteers from that era. That's why I mentioned them... and also the esperantists. They were his circle, I believe.