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Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

cell.com

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Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#111

Post by timr »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #42

Not to disagree with the effectiveness of immunity gained by getting Covid-19, but also: "The evidence shows that protective antibodies generated in response to an mRNA vaccine will target a broader range of SARS-CoV-2 variants ... compared to antibodies acquired from an infection." https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-genera... "Vaccination offers longer, stronger immunity" https://www.jhsph.edu/cov…

I am a believer in vaccines, but you're mischaracterizing the first link by selective omission. You've cut out the critical words of the sentence (emphasized):

> The new evidence shows that protective antibodies generated in response to an mRNA vaccine will target a broader range of SARS-CoV-2 variants carrying “single letter” changes in a key portion of their spike protein compared to antibodies acquired from an infection.

The paper shows that vaccines produce a more diverse antibody response to the RBD, which is one portion of the spike protein. They admit that natural infection produces antibodies targeted to other portions of the spike protein (also, presumably, to other parts of the virus, though that isn't discussed in this press release):

> Specifically, antibodies elicited by the mRNA vaccine were more focused to the RBD compared to antibodies elicited by an infection, which more often targeted other portions of the spike protein.

Is this evidence that vaccines are "better" than natural infection? No. It can't be. The paper shows that there's a difference between the antibody responses, but beyond that, it's impossible to know what the practical impacts of that difference might be from this paper.

This is a perfect example of the political weaponization of pre-prints that has happened throughout the pandemic. People read these things, don't fully understand what they're reading or what questions they answer, and immediately jump to social media to start waving them around like team flags (and worse, people who should know better -- like Francis Collins -- seem to encourage the behavior. This PR seems to be trying very hard to mislead, without actually stepping over the line.)

This is an interesting paper, but it is in no way a definitive statement about the relative benefits of vaccination vs. natural immunity.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#112

Post by ithkuil »

anonuser123456 wrote: post #104
_Microft wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A broader set of antibodies does not necessarily have to be beneficial. They might be targeting parts of the virus that could change without it losing its function. The spike protein seems to be close to indispensable for this virus. Targetting it specifically instead of just 'something', might therefore be the preferable thing.

Right, but it is harder for an organism to make multiple adaptations at once. Natural infection produces antibodies that target the spike protein as well as other sites. To evade immunity, the virus would need to change both sites. It is very clear that the vaccine is putting selective pressure on spike protein evolution. Having alternative targets makes it harder to escape. We currently don’t know if those other sit…

(genuine question) What does prevent us from creating mRNA vaccines that target multiple sites and not only the spike protein?

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#113

Post by rubatuga »

krona wrote: post #107
542458 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The test is easy, but has a relatively high false positive rate. It also may use up lab resources that could be put to other uses. The other wrinkle (and possibly the most important one) is that we don’t want to create a system where antivaxxers have an incentive to deliberately infect themselves and/or others.

> The test is easy, but has a relatively high false positive rate. The FDA approved Roche serology test has a specificity greater than 99.8% and sensitivity of 100% (14 Days post-PCR confirmation) https://www.roche.com/media/releases/med-cor-2020-05-03.htm I wouldn't say 0.02% is a particularly high FP rate.

I think GP is saying that people who are no longer sick or infected, such as a month later, show false lositives

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#114

Post by raphlinus »

ithkuil wrote: post #112
anonuser123456 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but it is harder for an organism to make multiple adaptations at once. Natural infection produces antibodies that target the spike protein as well as other sites. To evade immunity, the virus would need to change both sites. It is very clear that the vaccine is putting selective pressure on spike protein evolution. Having alternative targets makes it harder to escape. We currently don’t know if those other sit…

(genuine question) What does prevent us from creating mRNA vaccines that target multiple sites and not only the spike protein?

https://theconversation.com/covid-vaccines-focus-on-the-spik... is probably relevant to your question. The short answer (this was also discussed recently on TWiV) is that spike is the earliest interaction with cells, so focusing on it hopefully causes the immune response to mount earlier as well. But, as described in the link, other proteins may be viable targets as well.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#115

Post by timr »

rubatuga wrote: post #108
eightysixfour wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to the list: "Kentucky residents who were not vaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated (odds ratio [OR] = 2.34; 95% confidence interval [CI] = 1.58–3.47). These findings suggest that among persons with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, full vaccination provides additional protection against reinfection." https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm?s_c…

Observational evidence of course, meaning plenty of confounders.

Also a very small study of N=246, which is why the confidence interval on the OR is so large.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#116

Post by krona »

nicoffeine wrote: post #90
015a wrote: post #19

Its important to keep studies like this in mind when talking with people who refuse to take the vaccine because they "already had COVID". In a very real sense, if natural antibodies are durable, persistent, and effective; the vaccine is an unnecessary medical procedure. Doctors would not cut off your legs for no reason; that would be unethical. The vaccine is a medical procedure like any other; if the benefit is ques…

> In a very real sense, if natural antibodies are durable, persistent, and effective; the vaccine is an unnecessary medical procedure. Doctors would not cut off your legs for no reason; that would be unethical. Taking a vaccine is not equivalent to cutting off someone's legs. It's an accepted practice in every modern society to prevent unnecessary pain, suffering, and death. > Yet, we have an increasing number of ven…

> and allows health officials to make informed decisions based on vaccination rates.

Barely. Forecasting is being done on antibody levels at least in countries that are running good real-time surveillance studies. Hence why Israel/Germany/UK are deploying third shots and many other countries will do the same.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#117

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

timr wrote: post #111
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #42

Not to disagree with the effectiveness of immunity gained by getting Covid-19, but also: "The evidence shows that protective antibodies generated in response to an mRNA vaccine will target a broader range of SARS-CoV-2 variants ... compared to antibodies acquired from an infection." https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-genera... "Vaccination offers longer, stronger immunity" https://www.jhsph.edu/cov…

I am a believer in vaccines, but you're mischaracterizing the first link by selective omission. You've cut out the critical words of the sentence (emphasized): > The new evidence shows that protective antibodies generated in response to an mRNA vaccine will target a broader range of SARS-CoV-2 variants carrying “single letter” changes in a key portion of their spike protein compared to antibodies acquired from an inf…

Thank you for adding nuance. This topic is indeed in sore need of more nuance.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#118

Post by ithkuil »

deanclatworthy wrote: post #50
015a wrote: post #19

Its important to keep studies like this in mind when talking with people who refuse to take the vaccine because they "already had COVID". In a very real sense, if natural antibodies are durable, persistent, and effective; the vaccine is an unnecessary medical procedure. Doctors would not cut off your legs for no reason; that would be unethical. The vaccine is a medical procedure like any other; if the benefit is ques…

As far I’m aware this is an American thing. I’m from Finland (no vaccine pass yet) but travelling in Germany/Austria right now. They have the concept of 3G (don’t ask me to translate) but basically you can’t eat, drink or stay anywhere without either a vaccine, recovery or negative test. There is a pop up antigen test facility about 100m from the restaurant where anyone can go get a quick negative result and go do th…

Most of the pushback I hear here (Italy) about the ability to just get tested as an alternative to vaccine certification is the cost. It's perceived as a tax on the freedom to not vaccinate.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#119

Post by ad404b8a372f2b9 »

ebiester wrote: post #88
unanswered wrote: post #26

Real facts that people won't like to hear: anyone who thought differently probably needs to retake a high school biology class.

The problem is that you think a high school biology class is sufficient to understand the broader implications. What is the limitation of this study? For example, in the context of the paper, "immunity" means that your immune system mounts an immediate response. Do the antibodies created attack variants equally effectively relative to vaccines? Are they better? Worse? This paper is one data point. Your high school bi…

I suspect nobody commenting here is equipped to analyze critically the science being done either on the virus or the vaccine, yet everybody speaks with authority on what's relevant and what's bullhockey.

A high-school biology class will give you good general priors and instincts about how things generally work and is as good as you're gonna get trying to understand what's going on currently without a relevant degree or a few years of hindsight for the politicization to die down. Infections generally leave antibodies behind therefore I'm going to assume people who have been infected have some immunity to this variant. Masks reduce the spread of spit therefore I'm going to assume they are generally useful to combat the spread.

I'm sure this will strike some as being anti-science but having seen how the sausage gets made wrt science and medicine I don't trust myself or the journalists to interpret or qualify the new results we get every week.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#120

Post by l33tman »

asddubs wrote: post #58
015a wrote: post #19

Its important to keep studies like this in mind when talking with people who refuse to take the vaccine because they "already had COVID". In a very real sense, if natural antibodies are durable, persistent, and effective; the vaccine is an unnecessary medical procedure. Doctors would not cut off your legs for no reason; that would be unethical. The vaccine is a medical procedure like any other; if the benefit is ques…

interesting, over here in germany if you (provably) had covid you don't have to get vaccinated to enter places requiring that or a test

I think the EU timeout for the proved infection is 6 months unfortunately. So someone in the EU decided that a COVID infection's protection only lasts 6 months.
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