Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

In ‘Anonymous’ Raids, Feds Work From List of Top 1,000 Protesters

wired.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 68 posts

Re: In ‘Anonymous’ Raids, Feds Work From List of Top 1,000 Protesters

#21

Post by fleitz »

geekam wrote: post #12
melvinng wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering that most DDOS attacks come from zombie bots installed on programs when people Torrent, I'm suprised that there were arrest made based on IPs

I know. I was thinking the same thing. How does an IP address translate to a human being?

The issue is not how to translate it but whether an IP address identifies a person beyond reasonable doubt, especially given Anonymous's ability to defeat FBI/CIA and other military grade networks including those the FBI/CIA employ to protect them.

It really raises question as to whether you can trust something as flimsy as an IP header given the technical sophistication of Anonymous. These people could well be innocent and in fact victims of anonymous directing attention away from itself and towards these innocent victims. When Anonymous can gain control of HB Gary and FBI/CIA assets imagine what they could do to an off the shelf system that hasn't been through the rigorous security protocols that HB Gary, the FBI and CIA follow.

Given the mutability of data on a USB stick I'd also be very interested to see the chain of custody on that data and how it might have been modified. Also, the defense should request access to the source code for the IDS system in question so that it can be examined for bugs and problems that may affect its ability to generate reliable evidence.

Re: In ‘Anonymous’ Raids, Feds Work From List of Top 1,000 Protesters

#22

Post by groby_b »

eschulte wrote: post #6

To echo a good question posed in the comments of the original article. "what is the digital equivalent of civil disobedience and protest?"

This would be civil disobedience if they turned themselves in after committing what is considered a crime, to point out the unjustness of the law that makes it a crime.

I didn't see Anonymous turn themselves in, did you?

Re: In ‘Anonymous’ Raids, Feds Work From List of Top 1,000 Protesters

#23

Post by wmf »

melvinng wrote: post #4
andreyf wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They probably won't arrest him. I'm a bit surprised that this was enough to even get a search warrant...

Considering that most DDOS attacks come from zombie bots installed on programs when people Torrent, I'm suprised that there were arrest made based on IPs

Did you read the article? Paypal provided evidence that the DDoS was coming from LOIC, a manually-operated non-botnet tool. Also, it sounds like Paypal's evidence was only used to get search warrants, and evidence found in those searches (like LIOC) would then be used to justify arrests.

Re: In ‘Anonymous’ Raids, Feds Work From List of Top 1,000 Protesters

#24

Post by Shenglong »

kkowalczyk wrote: post #9

I'm not necessarily against feds going after DDOSers, but this is a shameful, politically motivated retribution. The "crime" here is not sending packets to DDOS PayPal but criticizing the goverment. The goverment is in turn showing they're not afraid to destroy lives of those who do. DDOS attacks are pretty much an epidemic on the internet. I'm pretty sure every major company like Google or Microsoft or Amazon has to…

That could be one explanation. However, it's also true that this series of attacks has been some of the highest profile attacks ever publicized. Even if the government wasn't attacked, they'd probably have to do something to appease the general public. "We're doing nothing" probably wouldn't fly.

Re: In ‘Anonymous’ Raids, Feds Work From List of Top 1,000 Protesters

#25

Post by wmf »

smokeyj wrote: post #14

How exactly does one take an IP number and point a finger to the person who caused that transmission? If a computer can be hijacked by an undetectable virus from a Sony cd, can we really say for sure who caused any transmission from a PC? What if you framed your neighbors unsecured wifi? Or target someone's home? It's like a modern day witch hunt!

How exactly does one take an IP number and point a finger to the person who caused that transmission?

Good thing that's not what the FBI is doing.

can we really say for sure who caused any transmission from a PC?

If a computer is seized from a teenager's bedroom and it has LOIC installed and it isn't malware-infested...

Re: In ‘Anonymous’ Raids, Feds Work From List of Top 1,000 Protesters

#26

Post by Joakal »

jrockway wrote: post #16
maqr wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you assume an MTU of 1500 bytes, then this kid sent about 5.25MB worth of data.

But he didn't buy anything! This is like walking into a book store, looking around at books, reading a bit, and leaving the store without making a purchase. Clearly a federal crime.

Analogy time:

One person taking a book means others can not see the same book. Acceptable DoS because the owner thinks you may purchase it.

One person taking several books means others can not see the same books. Questionable DoS because the owner thinks you're screwing around.

Many people doing taking several books out in the store leaves the owner to suspect a DDoS attack because there's not usually that many people and none seem to want to buy. It's especially malicious if there's intent.

Ugly thing about DDoS is that since there's unexceptionally large amount of people and no books to check out, loyal and new customers will be put off and may not return causing future loss.

Re: In ‘Anonymous’ Raids, Feds Work From List of Top 1,000 Protesters

#27

Post by michaelchisari »

9999 wrote: post #7
eschulte wrote: post #6

To echo a good question posed in the comments of the original article. "what is the digital equivalent of civil disobedience and protest?"

Here's the thing with Civil Disobedience: you take a certain amount of risk when you do it. In fact, if there is no risk, there's little point in the "disobedient" action at all. So when these guys go to jail for DoSing a server, they've actually partially succeeded. Now when a majority of the populace cares that they've been punished for their actions, and believes the disobedience was a just action against an inval…

Simply blocking access to the site and hoping there will be no repercussions is basically pointless.

Not necessarily. Some civil disobedience is symbolic, as you describe, some is direct action. Some acts of civil disobedience have succeeded even though there have been media blackouts, mostly because the cost of continually arresting protestors who refuse to back down exceeds the downsides to negotiation.

Re: In ‘Anonymous’ Raids, Feds Work From List of Top 1,000 Protesters

#28

Post by michaelchisari »

groby_b wrote: post #22
eschulte wrote: post #6

To echo a good question posed in the comments of the original article. "what is the digital equivalent of civil disobedience and protest?"

This would be civil disobedience if they turned themselves in after committing what is considered a crime, to point out the unjustness of the law that makes it a crime. I didn't see Anonymous turn themselves in, did you?

This would be civil disobedience if they turned themselves in

That's not, actually, a requirement of civil disobedience, and never has been, historically. For instance, millions broke the salt laws of India, but only 80,000 were arrested, and I can guarantee that the remainder did not voluntarily turn themselves in.

Re: In ‘Anonymous’ Raids, Feds Work From List of Top 1,000 Protesters

#29

Post by rayiner »

kkowalczyk wrote: post #9

I'm not necessarily against feds going after DDOSers, but this is a shameful, politically motivated retribution. The "crime" here is not sending packets to DDOS PayPal but criticizing the goverment. The goverment is in turn showing they're not afraid to destroy lives of those who do. DDOS attacks are pretty much an epidemic on the internet. I'm pretty sure every major company like Google or Microsoft or Amazon has to…

If you read the article, this list of "protestors" is the list of IP addresses who hit PayPal with the most DDOS packets.

Re: In ‘Anonymous’ Raids, Feds Work From List of Top 1,000 Protesters

#30

Post by InclinedPlane »

andreyf wrote: post #3
tshtf wrote: post #2

The newly released affidavit was offered in support of a search warrant for the home of an Arlington, Texas couple and their son, who were among the July 19 targets, and have not been charged. The house was the source of 3,678 packets in about two-and-a-half hours starting December 8. So they're going to arrest a kid for sending an average on one packet every two seconds, over the period of two-and-a-half hours?

They probably won't arrest him. I'm a bit surprised that this was enough to even get a search warrant...

Maybe, I'm not so sure though. If you participate in a mob that went down to some local business to throw rocks through their window, should you expect to be let off easy because you just threw a pebble?

On balance I think the idea that DDoS is "ok" and should be tolerated is not a good road to travel down.

Post reply on HN