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Mozilla is building an operating system

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Re: Mozilla is building an operating system

#71

Post by andhow »

Boot To Gecko is not a project to build an operation system.

IIUC, Mozilla is planning to reuse Linux and core components of Android. If anything, I would think Boot To Gecko would be better thought of as a shell around the OS. Using process separation (underway for a while now in the Electrolysis project) bugs/leaks/crashes in Gecko should be isolated and not significantly more disruptive than in normal Firefox.

I think the major value provided by (and work required for) Boot To Gecko will be on creating open standards (in the open) for access to the device so that web platform can be a first class citizen of the device.

Re: Mozilla is building an operating system

#72

Post by eropple »

DEinspanjer wrote: post #67
eropple wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be under the impression that the difficulty of putting out a working product is something the consumer cares about. They don't. Results are what matters, and for all too long Mozilla's results have been poor compared to Google's.

There are a lot of things that "the consumer" doesn't care about. Some of those are things that Mozilla feels are very important and we spend time trying to show people why. Mozilla doesn't make a browser to maximize their profits by taking as much from "the consumer" as they can get away with. If we try to compete with the other vendors on those terms, I agree we will fail. I hope that there continue to be enough pe…

This sits among the more passive-aggressive posts I've seen in a while.

Mozilla makes a browser. It is evaluated in comparison with other browsers. It does not matter who makes those other browsers or why--and it's not like the primary contenders are "maximizing their profits" off of it anyway! The WebKit guys aren't "maximizing their profits" by writing WebKit. Google isn't "maximizing their profits" by using WebKit in Chrome. There may be some knock-on benefits for Google, but it's certainly not directly making them cartloads of money. But what they have done is written a very, very fine browser.

I was a Mozilla user well before Firefox--heck, when Mozilla Suite was EOLed I was a SeaMonkey user for a while. And then I left. Why? Because Mozilla's browser stopped being worth my time. The competition blew past XULRunner (lol) and Gecko (ouch) and Mozilla simply has not caught up. Maybe the memory issues have been fixed in recent years; I wouldn't know because the reason I won't go back now is performance and compatibility. Lofty goals that we poor benighted consumers don't "get" are nice to have, but bringing them up because your browser can't hack what WebKit can doesn't excuse it from not being able to do so.

It is notable and both sad and funny that the only time you get the "people don't understand what we're doing!" spiel is when you don't have people singing hosannahs to your greatness. If you want them, compete successfully. Don't come around whining that people switched away because the things that matter to them were inadequately addressed by your development team. Because that's solely and singularly on you guys. I want you guys to do well. I truly, honestly do. Right now? You don't compete, so I avoid Firefox. Sorry.

Re: Mozilla is building an operating system

#73

Post by DEinspanjer »

mindcrime wrote: post #69
DEinspanjer wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope I made it clear enough in my first reply that while your post was the one I chose to thread off of, I do believe that you weren't griping just for the sake of it and I take your interest in the Mozilla mission and frustration with the memory issue as sincere. I believe there are lots of reasons that different people run into a memory issue, and I believe that while the Firefox devs have tackled some of them, t…

I'll reiterate, given my specialization in metrics, I love the new about:memory feature and also the Telemetry project. These two projects will give us useful tools to be able to accurately measure memory consumption on a variety of platforms for users who feel the memory problems as well as those who don't. If you have some time, try out a nightly or aurora. If nightly, then opting in to Telemetry will submit the da…

Well, I wouldn't trust the nightly to be very stable. I'm sure there will be oopsies (internal Firefox joke) to be had on occasion there.

I've been running Aurora since Firefox 5.0 was released though, and I haven't had a crash yet and it has been smooth sailing. YMMV of course.

Re: Mozilla is building an operating system

#74

Post by hn_decay »

burgerbrain wrote: post #62
hn_decay wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in complete agreement. And quite honestly it grows tiring actually refuting the various anti-Firefox rants with actual fact -- it is a bit of a hobbyhorse of some people while they cheer on whatever team they're waving the flag of. It honestly must be emotionally exhausting to work for Mozilla projects. For all of the incredible work they have done (Firefox is the reason Apple still exists...I'll argue that poin…

I wonder what your theory is on how these "anti-Firefox fanbois" are created? I used to be a " Pro -Firefox fanboi", had the apparel and everything. Now I no longer use it and on occasion like to publicly comment about my new dislike of it. Since the facts are apparently not on my side, what is going on here?

Firefox was once the "I'm ahead of you" browser of choice for people who need to be propped up by their choices (of software or hardware). Eventually it got popular enough that some subsection of those people had to move on, generally to Chrome. Eventually the same nonsense will happen with Chrome (the loudmouths deriding it publicly for being yesterday's news).

So, essentially, browser hipsters.

Re: Mozilla is building an operating system

#75

Post by DEinspanjer »

eropple wrote: post #72
DEinspanjer wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of things that "the consumer" doesn't care about. Some of those are things that Mozilla feels are very important and we spend time trying to show people why. Mozilla doesn't make a browser to maximize their profits by taking as much from "the consumer" as they can get away with. If we try to compete with the other vendors on those terms, I agree we will fail. I hope that there continue to be enough pe…

This sits among the more passive-aggressive posts I've seen in a while. Mozilla makes a browser. It is evaluated in comparison with other browsers . It does not matter who makes those other browsers or why--and it's not like the primary contenders are "maximizing their profits" off of it anyway! The WebKit guys aren't "maximizing their profits" by writing WebKit. Google isn't "maximizing their profits" by using WebKi…

I was trying not to be aggressive and still make some points that were important to me. Reviewing the post, I'll concede it has a passive-aggressive tone. I apologize.

Re: Mozilla is building an operating system

#76

Post by ootachi »

eropple wrote: post #72
DEinspanjer wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of things that "the consumer" doesn't care about. Some of those are things that Mozilla feels are very important and we spend time trying to show people why. Mozilla doesn't make a browser to maximize their profits by taking as much from "the consumer" as they can get away with. If we try to compete with the other vendors on those terms, I agree we will fail. I hope that there continue to be enough pe…

This sits among the more passive-aggressive posts I've seen in a while. Mozilla makes a browser. It is evaluated in comparison with other browsers . It does not matter who makes those other browsers or why--and it's not like the primary contenders are "maximizing their profits" off of it anyway! The WebKit guys aren't "maximizing their profits" by writing WebKit. Google isn't "maximizing their profits" by using WebKi…

You admit to not having used Firefox in recent years, so how do you know that Firefox "doesn't compete"?

Re: Mozilla is building an operating system

#77

Post by eropple »

ootachi wrote: post #76
eropple wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sits among the more passive-aggressive posts I've seen in a while. Mozilla makes a browser. It is evaluated in comparison with other browsers . It does not matter who makes those other browsers or why--and it's not like the primary contenders are "maximizing their profits" off of it anyway! The WebKit guys aren't "maximizing their profits" by writing WebKit. Google isn't "maximizing their profits" by using WebKi…

You admit to not having used Firefox in recent years, so how do you know that Firefox "doesn't compete"?

Because I have to target it. It's installed; it is not my first or second browser of choice except to make sure CSS3 and JS don't hork.

Re: Mozilla is building an operating system

#78

Post by burgerbrain »

hn_decay wrote: post #74
burgerbrain wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what your theory is on how these "anti-Firefox fanbois" are created? I used to be a " Pro -Firefox fanboi", had the apparel and everything. Now I no longer use it and on occasion like to publicly comment about my new dislike of it. Since the facts are apparently not on my side, what is going on here?

Firefox was once the "I'm ahead of you" browser of choice for people who need to be propped up by their choices (of software or hardware). Eventually it got popular enough that some subsection of those people had to move on, generally to Chrome. Eventually the same nonsense will happen with Chrome (the loudmouths deriding it publicly for being yesterday's news). So, essentially, browser hipsters.

Cool theory, except my bicycle has a respectable number of gears and I think Lady Gaga is pretty good.

Face it, people bitch about Firefox because they legitimately had bad user eperiances. Your attitude doesn't suprize me though, it seems to be one held by Mozilla devs too.

Re: Mozilla is building an operating system

#79

Post by pcwalton »

burgerbrain wrote: post #78
hn_decay wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox was once the "I'm ahead of you" browser of choice for people who need to be propped up by their choices (of software or hardware). Eventually it got popular enough that some subsection of those people had to move on, generally to Chrome. Eventually the same nonsense will happen with Chrome (the loudmouths deriding it publicly for being yesterday's news). So, essentially, browser hipsters.

Cool theory, except my bicycle has a respectable number of gears and I think Lady Gaga is pretty good. Face it, people bitch about Firefox because they legitimately had bad user eperiances. Your attitude doesn't suprize me though, it seems to be one held by Mozilla devs too.

I am a Mozilla dev. I certainly don't hold the attitude that there's something wrong with you if you don't like Firefox. Rather, I'm interested to hear about your bad user experience so that we can improve.

Re: Mozilla is building an operating system

#80

Post by burgerbrain »

pcwalton wrote: post #79
burgerbrain wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool theory, except my bicycle has a respectable number of gears and I think Lady Gaga is pretty good. Face it, people bitch about Firefox because they legitimately had bad user eperiances. Your attitude doesn't suprize me though, it seems to be one held by Mozilla devs too.

I am a Mozilla dev. I certainly don't hold the attitude that there's something wrong with you if you don't like Firefox. Rather, I'm interested to hear about your bad user experience so that we can improve.

I don't have anything to say that hasn't been said thousands of times already. There should be no mystery to what is bugging so many people.
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