What happened to all the female developers? • Hacker News Board

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#181

Post by imajes » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 11:11 PM UTC

yardie wrote: post #20

Locke1689 wrote: post #7

And she said that one of the things that happens is that women don’t even think they’re qualified for something because it’s advertised in competitive language. The language of competition not only doesn’t appeal to many women, it actually puts them off. This doesn't make sense to me because easily the most competitive path I've ever seen is premed. Almost all of the premeds I know are competing for the best grades,…

This doesn't make any sense to me (not you, the statement). Some of the most competitive people I know are women. And if you've been on a university campus it's stacked top to bottom with women competing for highly selective majors. CS and Sft.Eng. seems to be an outlier in this, but chem, bio, business, and econ are populated with really smart graduate women. Even when I was in highschool 10 years ago the top 10 stu…

so what is it, then?

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#182

Post by rdouble » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 11:18 PM UTC

imajes wrote: post #171

rdouble wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who say this haven't done the math or looked at real salary numbers. The average salary for a cardiologist is $308,000/yr. The average salary for a software engineer is $58,000/yr. The cardiologist makes six times as much money. Even with a 12 year head start the programmer comes out behind. Medical school debt can be paid off in 2-5 years. In addition, the cardiologist can keep practicing into her 60s whereas…

"In addition, the cardiologist can keep practicing into her 60s whereas a programmer should plan to retire or change careers in his 40s." And from where do you find this Bullshit?

From news articles and personal experience. There have been dozens, if not hundreds of articles about age discrimination in high tech. The people in my extended family who are doctors are all still practicing in their 60s, whereas the two who were programmers were laid off at age 48 and 52, never to work as programmers again. I worked in Silicon Valley, Boston and NYC for 12 years and I can count the number of programmers I worked with over the age of 45 on one hand! (Maybe even on 1 finger, technically the other guy was no longer working as a programmer...)

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#183

Post by jwwest » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 11:24 PM UTC

I can barely put up with all of the jerks in our industry as a man, I don't want to think about what it would be like as a woman.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#184

Post by groby_b » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 11:28 PM UTC

olliesaunders wrote: post #173

groby_b wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, we're still in that time. I don't see "ALTER TABLE" go away any time soon :)

Yup. SQL is from the dark ages. No wonder people are trying to abstract it away all the time.

Just to clarify, I was kidding. I'm fairly certain the GP was referring to COBOL's "ALTER x TO PROCEED TO Y" statement.

All of you who didn't get the reference, you don't even know how lucky you are :)

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#185

Post by philwelch » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 11:33 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #113

flomincucci wrote: post #87

I'm a female developer. I'm not going for CS, but a Systems Engineering degree. I share classes with lots of women (well, in the best of situations, we're 1/3 of the total population of a classroom). Even knowing lots of women going for a SE degree, I can count with one hand the female developers I know. Most of them aren't interested in developing, but in functional analysis and leading teams.

> Most of them aren't interested in developing, but in functional analysis and leading teams. But why is that so? Is it because we as a culture have decided that "men are focussed on building things" and "women are focussed on social interaction"? I'm interested in the thought process that actually motivates people to decide what they prefer to be working on. When I look back on how I got started with programming, th…

Is it because we as a culture have decided that "men are focussed on building things" and "women are focussed on social interaction"?

"Decided" or "observed"?

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#186

Post by philwelch » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 11:36 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #149

kenjackson wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't about high positions. This is about choice of profession. I can buy your argument for why men become CxOs (although based on people I've worked with in the past who have said they'd never report to a woman, I think sexism plays a large role in our industry), it doesn't explain why women as a whole go into poorer paying fields. Psychology is the classic example. Few women in the field in the 60s, and pay wa…

More likely the pay for psychologists dropped because the total supply of psychologists (both genders) increased faster than the population. Also the psychopharmacology industry has provided an alternative to psychologists.

This is really the answer for all the fields. When women enter a field, men don't really leave. So the total number of practitioners goes up.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#187

Post by bugsy » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 11:36 PM UTC

Duff wrote: post #159

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should it be a big deal if you interrupt your career for a few years (whether to have a family or to travel the world...somehow I bet the second would be seen as ok in tech circles)? A good programmer can pick up a new technology in a couple of months. If you are hiring based on candidates winning resume buzzword bingo, you are going to get crappy candidates anyway. Hire for intelligence and capability and five y…

I agree. I think paid sabbaticals have positive ROI too. Number crunchers don't think in those terms though.

Good comment. Great point about sabbaticals.

It's a pity that when I read your good comments and the one above it, both had been downvoted into the grey. Many newcomers here at HN don't seem to understand that downvoting here is not meant to indicate that one doesn't like an opinion, it's supposed to be for comments that are abusive, obviously trolling, or that contribute nothing.

I propose an improvement to the downvoting API: One can downvote all they want, but each downvote will cost 1 karma/reputation point. That way, people with much good reputation can as needed mark abusive posts. But the newcomers will think more carefully about marking down posts they simply don't agree with since it can plunge them into negative.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#188

Post by Udo » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 11:37 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #185

Udo wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most of them aren't interested in developing, but in functional analysis and leading teams. But why is that so? Is it because we as a culture have decided that "men are focussed on building things" and "women are focussed on social interaction"? I'm interested in the thought process that actually motivates people to decide what they prefer to be working on. When I look back on how I got started with programming, th…

Is it because we as a culture have decided that "men are focussed on building things" and "women are focussed on social interaction"? "Decided" or "observed"?

That's the same thing. When a culture "decides" something like that it becomes a behavioral reality. The human mind is incredibly plastic. Cultural expectations and preconceptions shape us tremendously, they play a big role in all issues where identity or life goals are concerned.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#189

Post by philwelch » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 11:40 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #188

philwelch wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it because we as a culture have decided that "men are focussed on building things" and "women are focussed on social interaction"? "Decided" or "observed"?

That's the same thing. When a culture "decides" something like that it becomes a behavioral reality. The human mind is incredibly plastic. Cultural expectations and preconceptions shape us tremendously, they play a big role in all issues where identity or life goals are concerned.

No, you're presupposing that it's some sort of cultural influence that came out of nowhere rather than (one of many) quite natural, pre-existing behavioral differences between men and women.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#190

Post by Udo » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 11:45 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #189

Udo wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the same thing. When a culture "decides" something like that it becomes a behavioral reality. The human mind is incredibly plastic. Cultural expectations and preconceptions shape us tremendously, they play a big role in all issues where identity or life goals are concerned.

No, you're presupposing that it's some sort of cultural influence that came out of nowhere rather than (one of many) quite natural, pre-existing behavioral differences between men and women.

You're absolutely correct, I'm am. And you're presupposing that those differences are biologically hardcoded, I get that. I just don't agree with you.