CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative • Hacker News Board

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#421

Post by emptysongglass » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

atatatat wrote: post #417

emptysongglass wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please stop attacking another Android distro under the umbrella of a project (the Calyx Institute) that has done a lot of good for others? It makes you look like an a**hole. There's plenty of room in this space for multiple visions of what a more-secure, more-private Android OS looks like. There's gradations of privacy and security and some users might prefer your gradient, whereas others might prefer CalyxOS…

Your comment leaves out the danger of advertising security and privacy when you cripple those things. All open source projects should be able to take GP's criticism, dev of "competitor" or otherwise — specifically because they're not products — they're public projects. Both projects should absolutely be encouraged — and steered, if a user knows a better way.

> Your comment leaves out the danger of advertising security and privacy when you cripple those things.

Nobody is doing this. Calyx is taking a measured approach, as they see it, and is making commensurate claims: "CalyxOS is an Android mobile operating system that puts privacy and security into the hands of everyday users." Right on their website.

I am vehemently against absolutisms on security. Where that road goes is straight into a dick measuring contest and it's ugly. You only have to look at Moxie's terrible public behavior to see what the fallout from that approach looks like.

It's a poison in the security industry and it needs to be called out and stopped now. It rewards grown adults for acting like children. It's enough now.

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#422

Post by atatatat » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

GekkePrutser wrote: post #87

atatatat wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Calyx keeps the basic security model of Android intact (verified boot), unlike Lineage.

Indeed, but in return it only supports pixel phones, sadly (considering they're not great value for money for custom rom purposes, and most of their added value is lost when running a custom rom)

> considering they're not great value for money for custom rom purposes

I pay $120-$350 for used Pixels.

What I guess I'm trying to say is: Huh?

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#423

Post by atatatat » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:25 PM UTC

godelski wrote: post #67

grey_earthling wrote: post #16

From https://calyxos.org/about/ : > In social science, agency is defined as: the capacity of individuals to act independently and to make their own free choices. > built-in integration for Signal and WhatsApp calls Signal and WhatsApp are both fully centralised, tied to a single organisation each — they are antithetical to agency. Why not use open protocols like DeltaChat, Matrix or XMPP instead? > built-in free “Vir…

> Why not use open protocols like DeltaChat, Matrix or XMPP instead? Because Signal and WhatsApp are text/messanger replacements and Matrix is a slack/discord replacement? I'm not sure why there's the constant Signal vs Matrix battle here on HN, I see them as different tools doing different things. I'm not going to create or get all my friends to join a server with Matrix. Or even coworkers or random acquaintances I…

> I don't see why Signal and Matrix have to be in competition

Because people here only care about security and privacy, and Signal/Matrix offer some of the best user accessible encryption.

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#424

Post by scns » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:25 PM UTC

strcat wrote: post #396

scns wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to be a pedantic but: Two People created CopperheadOS, one of them now works on GrapheneOS. The security mitigations developed for those were incorporated upstream into Android, decreasing the attack surface.

> Two People created CopperheadOS, one of them now works on GrapheneOS. No, that's not true. GrapheneOS is the continuation of the project by the original development team. There aren't any developers who stuck with Copperhead. The project was created 1 year before Copperhead existed as a company. https://grapheneos.org/history > The security mitigations developed for those were incorporated upstream into Android, de…

I'm sorry, if i misrepresented the great stuff you did and still do. English is the first foreign language i learned.

"Two People created CopperheadOS, they had a disagreement. One of them continues to work on it under the name GrapheneOS."

Would this describe it better?

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#425

Post by entropy1111 » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

luca020400 wrote: post #378

entropy1111 wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no point in using LineageOS after they dropped PrivacyGuard instead of expanding it. You start going down this road and suddenly you'll have a phone that doesn't pass SafetyNet anymore. You have to use 3rd-party applications and probably a ROM made by a random internet user not affiliated with LineageOS because they drop support for devices all the time. The phone manufacturers bribe ROM developers to do that…

Privacy Guard) I was the one who purposely removed it. I spent days ( if not weeks ) trying to get it working properly ( read, it never worked properly and causes many issues we still have tickets for ) futhermore Google basically rewrote the full stack once again, while introducing the, now publicly available in 12, permission hub that somehow gave a better view of permissions and easy access to remove them. We know…

>Privacy Guard) I was the one who purposely removed it.

I know that but it was the main selling point of the ROM for me. Also that I didn't even need a firewall because you could block network access.

>SafetyNet

I was commenting from the POV of a user who needs apps that demand SafetyNet access. You're right.

>Bribing

I was talking about ROM developers on e.g. XDA, not LineageOS the "company".

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#426

Post by atatatat » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

emptysongglass wrote: post #421

atatatat wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment leaves out the danger of advertising security and privacy when you cripple those things. All open source projects should be able to take GP's criticism, dev of "competitor" or otherwise — specifically because they're not products — they're public projects. Both projects should absolutely be encouraged — and steered, if a user knows a better way.

> Your comment leaves out the danger of advertising security and privacy when you cripple those things. Nobody is doing this. Calyx is taking a measured approach, as they see it, and is making commensurate claims: "CalyxOS is an Android mobile operating system that puts privacy and security into the hands of everyday users." Right on their website. I am vehemently against absolutisms on security. Where that road goes…

> You only have to look at Moxie's terrible public behavior to see what the fallout from that approach looks like.

Cite Torvalds' absolutism on not breaking userspace, too, while you're at it..

These projects are all forwarding their missions; it's not because they listened to your criticism about being too absolutist on goals they are passionate about.

The "dick measuring" you're seeing is how any niche group quickly scrambles to sift out the "truth". Geopolitics research threads, when airplanes go down mysteriously, new longboard gets released, whatever — the smartest people go back and forth with (at?) each other¹ until some form of consensus is reached, and the "herd immunity" or general knowledge of the community is improved.

¹(sometimes with far less civility than in this case!)

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#427

Post by atatatat » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:45 PM UTC

GekkePrutser wrote: post #119

mdp2021 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most of their added value is lost when running a custom rom Could you please explain?

Well, Google packages the pixel phones with their latest OS updates and pixel specific features like Gcam. By running a custom ROM you lose those. Its cameras mainly perform so well because of the big AI farms at Google.

Pixel cameras are great, regardless of what app used.

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#428

Post by TroisM » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:49 PM UTC

fitblipper wrote: post #28

The thing which always makes me hesitant about these projects is that they don't receive frequent security audits and not having an expensive brand behind them makes them more at risk to being willing to trash their name at the cost of my privacy and security. I consider these to be a fairly critical part of any project which claims superior privacy and security. I think about it this way: Should I trust A. The compa…

> The thing which always makes me hesitant about these projects is that they don't receive frequent security audits and not having an expensive brand behind them makes them more at risk to being willing to trash their name at the cost of my privacy and security. I consider these to be a fairly critical part of any project which claims superior privacy and security.

Lets keep using known flawed alternatives instead?

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#429

Post by atatatat » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:49 PM UTC

jszymborski wrote: post #3

So, what's the current experience like on Android w/o Play services? I know at some point it was quite bad but that there were some up-and-coming solutions.

I struggle to find any half-assed techy person who uses an app that won't run on AOSP/Calyx/GrapheneOS.

Re: CalyxOS – De-Googled Android Alternative

#430

Post by emptysongglass » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

atatatat wrote: post #426

emptysongglass wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your comment leaves out the danger of advertising security and privacy when you cripple those things. Nobody is doing this. Calyx is taking a measured approach, as they see it, and is making commensurate claims: "CalyxOS is an Android mobile operating system that puts privacy and security into the hands of everyday users." Right on their website. I am vehemently against absolutisms on security. Where that road goes…

> You only have to look at Moxie's terrible public behavior to see what the fallout from that approach looks like. Cite Torvalds' absolutism on not breaking userspace, too, while you're at it.. These projects are all forwarding their missions; it's not because they listened to your criticism about being too absolutist on goals they are passionate about. The "dick measuring" you're seeing is how any niche group quickl…

> about being too absolutist on goals they are passionate about.

Not at all what I mean when I say I am vehemently against absolutisms on security. Any claim to superiority on security and subsequent trashing of others is rotten because it's not kind, not compassionate, not conducive to cooperation, the single greatest tool we have as humankind. We don't need more division in this space and we don't need people with a headful of their egos being affirmed for bad human behavior.

There are better ways of being critical of others without being an a**hole in public. That's the thrust of my argument. We'd all do well to hold these people to a better standard of behavior.