Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities • Hacker News Board

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#301

Post by miccah » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 1:53 PM UTC

I'm happy to hear this statistic, but American cities need to change so much to make it happen - mainly removing cars as other commenters pointed out. A good start would be making public transportation more available through buses and trains, followed by limiting cars in already more walkable areas of the city.

Not Just Bikes is a great YouTube channel that explores city planning and often compares American cities to cities in the Netherlands. He has a video on Strong Towns as well.

https://youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#302

Post by johannes1234321 » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 1:54 PM UTC

ethanbond wrote: post #266

loa_in_ wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sunken cost basically almost doomed the world by now (fossil fuel industry) so there's no way America gives up their cars (for less)

Of course there is. Just get rid of parking and/or put up bollards.

It's not that easy. For one there is a notable population which will complain and even for those who want to get rid of cars it is a long project: You need to change the city structure. If you have a resedential area without shops to run errands and no workplaces whatsoever people will need to travel long distances each time. Long travel time (whatever the means) means that you don't do grocery shopping for a day or two, but a week or two, which means you carry more and that's only viable by car.

Transforming city structure and society takes time.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#303

Post by afarrell » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 1:56 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #17

No, they don’t. This is a classic example of listening to what people say vs observing what they do. And it’s a good lesson in product development. Ask your users “do you want X?” And the answer is inevitably “yes”. Ask them “do you want A or B?” And you’ll start to get a better approximation of user behavior. Better yet is observing actual behavior. In this case Americans have chosen the suburbs in droves. Americans…

Yea, you have to ask people “do you like walkable cities enough that you’d be willing to let a for-profit developer build houses and vote for an otherwise-unsavory politician who repealed minimum parking requirements?”

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#304

Post by antb123 » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:02 PM UTC

Walkable is good... Bikeable is even better

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#305

Post by iammisc » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:05 PM UTC

strix_varius wrote: post #276

iammisc wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just disagree. I live in the very environment you claim doesn't exist

So do I! I’m kind of baffled reading this thread - folks are discussing my neighborhood as if it’s a theoretical impossibility. A “small” SFH lot is 0.15 acres. That’s over 6,500 square feet! You can comfortably build a >2,000 square foot house with a front and back yard, off-street parking, garden, trees, etc in that space. Simultaneously, it will only require about 50 ft of sidewalk length. My wife and I share one…

We must be twins. My lot is 0.14 acres. My house is a two story colonial plus finished basement. Easily > 2500sqft with room to spare.

Also a hundred years old. They don't build them like this anymore.

One car as well. For further out things or things I need to get to fast, I bike. The car is used to visit grandma and grandpa about 15 miles away, to go shopping for big items, and that's it

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#306

Post by antb123 » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:08 PM UTC

throw0101a wrote: post #272

cbdumas wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's hard to find because those two preferences are in direct, irresolvable conflict.

> I think it's hard to find because those two preferences are in direct, irresolvable conflict. Plenty of places that were built pre-WW2 have people walking for groceries and such, cycling and taking transit to work, and yet still have cars (street parking and back yard garages) for other longer distance errands: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcar_suburb Two go-to…

After living in Europe for a while Toronto is "ok" but still very car dependent.

I would point to Scandinavia (Finland, Denmark, etc) and parts of France and Germany as places that have cars but maintain walkable, bikeable cities.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#307

Post by iammisc » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:09 PM UTC

mrgordon wrote: post #250

iammisc wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Portland city limits but not downtown. Where I live was built as a suburb but the city grew into it. Actually Portland has a lot of these downtowney areas and they're surrounded by blocks and blocks of single family homes and small apartments But if you go farther out into newer developments, they just abandoned this lovely system and made awful cookie cutter burbs. Before this I lived in San Rafael and lar…

Portland is a pretty unique place. They famously drew a circle around the city and said development can’t go outside of that area which forced a certain density and allowed transit to be planned well in advance. I didn’t spent a ton of time there and admittedly it was January so it was quite frigid, but the distances can still feel quite long between things outside of downtown. Portland made a few mistakes when they…

Close-in marin, so Sausalito, Marin city, Larkspur, Corte Madera, San Rafael, and the 'Sir Francis Drake corridor' (San Anselmo, Kentfield, etc) are very walkable. I don't really understand the consternation about bart, the bus service is reliable, and both the marin transit and golden gate transit are the gold standard in american public bus service IMO. Clean, WIFI, nice seats...

My wife and I frequently took public buses into San Francisco for date nights, and would come back late (last bus arrives past midnight, IIRC).

> Marin county famously blocked BART from expanding north in order to keep out the “riff-raff”.

Really good idea. Marin is a lovely place, and BART is famously terrible. Until the other cities in the bay area manage to enforce some semblance of law, I don't blame Marin for wanting nothing to do with them.

> Zooming in near the walkable areas of San Rafael, Google Maps instantly highlights many car oriented businesses like at 2nd street and D street where we see a Chevron gas station, an Arco gas station, and an O’Reilly Auto Parts store all on one corner.

Living in a walkable area does not imply removing every reminder of a car LOL.

> They famously drew a circle around the city and said development can’t go outside of that area which forced a certain density and allowed transit to be planned well in advance.

This is not why Portland developed this way. There are many places within the metro area that have not. Portland developed this way because it started as many small towns that merged, similar to Marin. The difference between PDX and Marin is that PDX is today much denser, but the basic layout is the same.

I'll also note that you're getting really bogged down with the fact Marin has no public rapid train transit, as if thats necessary for walkability. Marin is walkable because there are so many downtowns, if you live nearby, you just go to your downtown, and the downtowns it does have are spectacular. Downtown San Anselmo, Fairfax, etc are IMO the definition of an American downtown. They are so charming it's painful.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#308

Post by antb123 » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:10 PM UTC

CapricornNoble wrote: post #235

cbdumas wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's hard to find because those two preferences are in direct, irresolvable conflict.

Japan manages it pretty well. The mass transit system of Tokyo is well known. But the city is also zoned such that walking or biking from an apartment/house/hotel to a restaurant, supermarket, or even a major park or museum is easy and fairly safe. The roads are clean and well-maintained, and traffic really isn't that bad. Street parking is rarely allowed, but small parking lots are numerous albeit expensive. Biking…

Japan is great but as the population density is 347 per Km2 it is maybe not 100% comparable except for the north.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#309

Post by antb123 » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #109

dghlsakjg wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amsterdam has big parking lots outside the city center. If you park there you get a free transit pass into the city I believe. Makes a lot of sense really

Montreal is similar. Parking downtown: horrible. Parking out in the 'burbs and then riding the metro into town? easy, and lovely. For a lot of things, anyway.

Same with New Jersey + train into Manhattan

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#310

Post by antb123 » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:15 PM UTC

yellow_lead wrote: post #16

version_five wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's hardest to find, and what I prefer, is somewhere it's easy to walk and drive. I've lived in walkable places where if you do have to drive, traffic is a nightmare. And then of course there are places where you can drive without traffic but there is nowhere to walk to. I think I prefer the latter with my lifestyle, though it becomes more frustrating for meeting friends, going our for dinner + drinks, etc. For sp…

Where have you been that has both? From my reading, it seems like cities need to prioritize walkable / bikable OR cars, but I've never seen example of a city doing both well.

Oulu Finland... Created equal numbers of separate human and car roads. Very possible in newer cities.

https://www.euronews.com/2021/01/22/meet-the-bike-loving-fin...