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In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

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Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#351

Post by cwizou »

matwood wrote: post #341
feross wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then ask yourself why they shipped this scanning on the client-side. This is the first step towards normalizing client-side scanning of encrypted content across the entire device .

I disagree. I think it's the first step towards enabling e2ee on iCloud photos. This system will replace the server side CSAM they have done for years.

I think this is highly unlikely, everything points to Apple ditching the idea altogether : https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51207744

Many foreign countries have also clearly stated that they do not want this (E2EE) to happen and would legislate against it (the UK comes to mind first).

I do believe that you are correct with the idea that this technology was initially developed as a compromise to E2EE. But while E2EE on iCloud was indefinitely shelved, somehow this was not.

And someone at Apple thought this could be repurposed as a privacy win anyway ?

The other way I can think of it is if the ultimate goal is to add those checks to iMessage. One could argue the tech would make a lot more sense there (it's mostly E2EE with caveats), and it would certainly catch many more positive hashes.

I think someone at Apple massively misjudged the global implications of this and opened the company to a (literal) world of upcoming legislative hurt.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#352

Post by ranguna »

Would it be possible to generate a handful of pictures that match a few hashes (but not actually real matches) and just do a mass forward to everyone?

WhatsApp, signal, email, slack, everywhere. Everyone would get flagged, mean that this tool is pointless.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#354

Post by ziml77 »

speleding wrote: post #330
ziml77 wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WhatsApp saves all received images to your library? That seems hard to believe. I can't imagine that anyone would appreciate having their personal photo collection cluttered with other peoples photos and all of the meme images that people share.

It's a setting, called "Save to camera roll". Default is on.

Strange. Is that a desirable feature for WhatsApp users? I must be overlooking a use case that makes that a sensible default.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#355

Post by rorykoehler »

jacquesm wrote: post #143
smnrchrds wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And HN's mistake is thinking any of this will matter. Apple only cares about money, always has, always will. And I'm willing to bet they are going to continue beating their revenue and profit record quarter after quarter. When their actions do not affect the one thing they care about, why should they care what anyone says?

Ah ok, so as long as it is profitable ethics don't matter. Got it.

[dead]

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#356

Post by delecti »

xyzzyz wrote: post #257
ASalazarMX wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes the slippery slope is not a fallacy, but the natural consequence of seeking more control. This feature can be horribly misused in the future, for example, to find people who have sent/received/downloaded Tiannanmen pictures, because instant messaging pictures can be automatically added to your albums. You can't trust a feature whose only impediment from being abused in the future is such pinky promise.

If I learned anything in my lifetime, it’s that “slippery slope” is not, in fact, a fallacy at all. Rather, it’s a rule of thumb.

There are plenty of examples where it is fallacious though, often absurdly so. The important distinction is: does A abstractly "lead to" B, or does A directly enable B, but for some will to use it that way.

For one example, it was always absurd to suggest that gay marriage would lead to legalized pedophilia, bestiality, or marriage to objects.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#357

Post by almostdigital »

matwood wrote: post #339
almostdigital wrote: post #10

A system on my phone where it has a list of bad files and a threshold on how many of those files are allowed. If the threshold is reached Apple can read them. Both the bad files list and threshold is controlled by Apple and is explicitly designed to be un-auditable... Honestly I would have been fine with Apple scanning my all photos after they are uploaded to iCloud but this is deeply disturbing

> Honestly I would have been fine with Apple scanning my all photos after they are uploaded to iCloud Apple has already been doing exactly this for years . Now they are going to check the photos right before uploading to iCloud which is actually more privacy friendly than they do now. It also lets Apple turn on e2e for iCloud photos if they want. I understand the 'what if' and slippery slope arguments, but wow, there…

> Apple has already been doing exactly this for years.

Is that an assumption made based on that "everyone is doing it" or is there some evidence?

> Apple makes the OS and doesn't need a fancy system to scan all the files on the device if that's what they want to do.

If the goal is to scan all the files on everyones device this system is exactly what they need. It's not like they could upload hashes of every file on every users phone continuously.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#358

Post by gbrown »

fragileone wrote: post #216
baq wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no viable option if you want a quality smartphone. Androids spy on you already. Apple will be spying on you. The dark side of economies of scale.

Android ROMs like GrapheneOS do not spy on you, verifiably.

Verifiably? Are people still swapping ROMs on XDA developers like its 1990? Are folks still having to dump binary blobs from devices to get the things to work with non-stock ROMs? Are some people still relying on jailbreaking tools they have to “just trust”? Does the modem on all these SOCs still run it’s own network facing machine with full RAM access?

Things might be better, but it’s not all roses.

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