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The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy

karl-voit.at

201–210 of 267 posts

Re: The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy

#201
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emacs has TRAMP as well out of the box, but for some reason they want o launch a lightweight cli instance of emacs on the serverside, which VSCode can't do.

If you have more than one ssh hop or a remote desktop in-between Tramp isn't an option.

Tramp works through multiple SSH hops just fine:

https://www.gnu.org/software/tramp/#Ad_002dhoc-multi_002dhop...

Re: The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy

#202
post #167

I've been using Emacs for almost 15 years now. At some point I even did my emails (using mu4e) and social medias (twitter and identica at the time) with it, in addition to all my work. My Emacs was heavily customized and I spent a lot of time fine tuning it to my likes and needs. About two years ago, I switched to KDE (from nothing except the Openbox window manager). I wanted to give Kate a try. It's a very decent ed…

> My Emacs was heavily customized > several hundreds of lines amateur

That's just the init.el file. I had several custom Emacs packages loaded from it ;).

Re: The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy

#204
post #180

I don't know whether or not it's a perfect translation, but from his description I would offer "tunnel vision" for Scheuklappen-Effekt. Emacs is a truly remarkable program, which has painted itself into a corner. There are just too many locked-in architectural decisions to make a complete list, and it's good enough at being what it is to suck up all the oxygen needed to build another text editor which could overcome…

Thinking of Org as "living in an editor" is the mental mistake that leads to that confusion. Org is a full blown task manager and note taking application, written for the Emacs platform. Emacs is a platform much like the JVM. Someone happened to write Minecraft for the JVM, and someone happened to write Org for the Emacs platform. People have written editors for Emacs (evil-mode is one I like) just as people have wri…

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not making a mental mistake, and I'm not confused.

I'm working on something which takes the -mode out of org and builds something meaningfully similar which isn't wedded to emacs.

> But you shouldn't say org "lives in an editor"

Except it does. If you want to use the org format in any sort of full-fledged way, you're going to be doing it in Emacs.

Which, ok, it's a platform. But it's a platform which is a text editor, comparing it to the JVM only goes so far. The JVM is a bytecode interpreter, Emacs is an editor which has a bytecode interpreter. Yes, it's possible to run it headless, no, it isn't pleasant or fast, it's not designed for this, people don't, good luck embedding it in something else, and so on and so forth.

You seem to be taking the old joke "Emacs is a great operating system which just needs a good text editor" a bit too seriously here.

Org-mode is a bunch of things, and one of those things is a text format. That text format is too closely tied to emacs, it's simply hopeless to reimplement it in anything else. If you don't believe me, take a look at the spreadsheet functionality!

Which is a pity, because another one of the things Org is, is an intriguing and powerful approach to literate programming. One which I expect would be much more attractive if it didn't require one to use Emacs to employ it.

You're welcome to integrate headless emacs into your CI if you're so committed to thinking of it as a "platform much like the JVM". I've found it simpler to take as many ideas from org-mode as possible, and just build from scratch.

But I'm not ready to release my code yet, and until I am, I should spend more time writing it, and less time talking about it on the orange website.

Re: The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had tried XEmacs for a while, but found it too aesthetically displeasing. Why would you even bother with a fork whose last release was 12 years ago? :\

Maybe that's when they tried it. Does it matter?

Erm, yes. Their complain was about aesthetics, and GNU Emacs has been much more aesthetic than XEmacs since forever.

Re: The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy

#206
post #102
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And it's not just the "big" things. When I want to sort a few lines in a region and immediately discover that I can just call "sort-lines", because of course I can, I know that I'm not going to bother waiting for some other editor to catch up in all those little things. FWIW this is something most editors let you do trivially. With VS Code, select the lines you want to sort, press Cmd-Shift-P to bring up fuzzy comm…

I agree with what you say about IDEs, but Emacs' "advantage" over other text editors is that it is only superficially a text editor. It's really more of an operating system.

How does the old joke go -- "Now if Emacs only had a decent text editor, it would be a pretty decent OS."

Re: The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy

#207
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With respect to LaTeX, I only started to use it semi-recently in the cloud and I'd recommend it to anyone (but only in the cloud). $ latexmk -pdf main.tex How hard is that? The only thing Overleaf adds here is a button and a 10x compilation time overhead. > I don't always remember what that magic meant. Overleaf mostly won't help you here, unless I'm mistaken. I don't mean to be aggressive here, I just don't get th…

Lol, that's not the command for making a LaTeX document. The command for making a LaTeX document fills a sheet for all the shit you have to install--half of which isn't correct on whatever documentation you're reading--and THEN you can `latexmk`. And I do mean you . I gave up after a solid week. I'll just make whatever I want in PowerPoint, save it to a PDF, and be done in 15 minutes. Yes, I said PowerPoint. Set you'…

> Yes, I said PowerPoint. Set you're slides to 8.5x11 and it became a typesetting program.

That won't print sensibly on the paper in your printer, in most of the civilised world.

Re: The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy

#208
post #201
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have more than one ssh hop or a remote desktop in-between Tramp isn't an option.

Tramp works through multiple SSH hops just fine: https://www.gnu.org/software/tramp/#Ad_002dhoc-multi_002dhop...

TIL! Thanks.

Re: The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy

#209
post #187

I like Emacs because it's a live programming environment focused on the editing of text. As far as I know, there is no other editor with this capability. Sure, they all let you write "plug-ins" but none of them let you do your work by writing code interactively, alongside normal editing commands and GUI operations. As a programmer, this is how I want to do everything with my computer. I don't have many customizations…

I'm not that surprised. It's the sort of thing you won't appreciate until you've tried it. Ask people what they want, and they'll tell you "a faster horse". Ask people what they want, and they'll tell you "a better editor" so that's how Emacs markets itself. Unless you've tried one, "a car" or "a fully dynamic, programmable editing environment" is just not on people's minds.

I don't understand it. Any examples how to do that in practice? (used emacs for a couple of years, but just as a editor)

Re: The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy

#210

I don't know whether or not it's a perfect translation, but from his description I would offer "tunnel vision" for Scheuklappen-Effekt. Emacs is a truly remarkable program, which has painted itself into a corner. There are just too many locked-in architectural decisions to make a complete list, and it's good enough at being what it is to suck up all the oxygen needed to build another text editor which could overcome…

My first thought for the Scheuklappen-Effekt was blinders. Blinders are used to prevent horses from seeing sideways. Turns out, blinders are also called blinkers.

> My first thought for the Scheuklappen-Effekt was blinders. Blinders are used to prevent horses from seeing sideways.

Yup, that's what Scheu-klappen means. "Shy-flaps", to use the English cognates: Flaps you put before (beside) the horse's eyes, to stop it shying away whenever it gets spooked by something it sees off to the side.

> Turns out, blinders are also called blinkers.

Funny how the adjectival form (gerund?) is apparently only used on the latter variant: I've only ever seen "that's a blinkered view", never "blindered".

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