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In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

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Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#331

Post by dijit »

hef19898 wrote: post #325
kgarten wrote: post #164

Wondering If this implementation is related to the chat control effort in the EU: https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/message-screening/?la... Just installing graheneos on a pixel, writing this from my Librem 14 (got it after the M1, the phoning home of apple apps, the new lockdown of kernel extensions). Goodbye Apple.

Now that I think about it, is there any good, viable alternative for Windows 10 on a new ThinkPad? One that ideally is able to run MS Office (or at least Excel...)? Any recommendations regarding decent, and ideally user friendly, Linux versions?

I mean, the fact that our world exists on the back of proprietary formats (thus locking us into software) should be a bigger deal.

"It should run microsoft office" is a difficult problem to solve and only serves to deeply entrench the big players.

I'm aware that I've had this same criteria myself for choosing a new device (because: pragmatism) but I've come to just "accept" it.

If I look a bit further away and remove my implicit acceptance of the status quo: I'm actually quite horrified that we're so tied to one company and what _it_ decides to support.

If the next versions of Microsoft Office didnt work on apple devices at all: what would the world do? Run Windows exclusively due to pragmatism is my initial assumption.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#332

Post by Retric »

an_account_name wrote: post #276
megous wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Visual derivative is a preprocessed picture itself, and it's part of the "safety voucher". It may be grayscale and resized/normalized in other ways. Only apple knows exactly what it is. It's only a matter of time until internet trolls find a way to abuse this. The database is stored on user's devices, so someone downloading it and permuting innocuous images enough until they match the database, and then spreading the…

If they can do a manual review at all, then there isn’t end to end encryption anymore, so I’m missing what the point of client side scanning is.

End to end encryption of messages is by comparison easy as the devices can handle all of that internally. However, losing your iPhone is one of the main reasons to have an iCloud backup. Require a user to come up with a private key and any user who lost it also loses all their data.

Most people don’t really want end to end on consumer backup services, because of the associated risks. If however you don’t want unsecured backups you can handle this manually.

Of course nobody wants the company to actually look at your data, but that’s a separate issue.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#333

Post by matwood »

praseodym wrote: post #305
an_account_name wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they can do a manual review at all, then there isn’t end to end encryption anymore, so I’m missing what the point of client side scanning is.

Apple doesn't currently have end-to-end encryption for iCloud Photos either: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303

Not today. I think moving CSAM from the server where it's done today to device is in preparation for announcing e2e for iCloud photos.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#334

Post by rswail »

midev wrote: post #100
eurasiantiger wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Add hashes of police uniforms and now you cannot take pictures of law enforcement. Add hashes of politicians. Businessmen in suits. Army uniforms. At the end you have a weapon that can only shoot civilians.

Do you know how discovery works in court? I'm guessing not. Once a hash matches, law enforcement would need a subpoena to access the raw image. If a person were to be arrested, that evidence would be turned over to the defense. It would be very obvious that a picture of a police officer was not child pornography. Are you under the impression people are jailed for hash collisions? Because that's not the case at all...…

I understand your argument, that a court (in a democratic country with a rule of law) would expect that the investigators extract the original image from the accused's phone with the appropriate chain of custody of the evidence.

However, that does not mean that while this investigation is under way, the accused is now go about their business.

For CP, or other crimes of violence, that makes sense.

But if laws are passed against peaceful protest, then that means someone could be held in detention while those photos are investigated. An anonymous photo now is trackable.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#335

Post by mberning »

Someone1234 wrote: post #38

Apple's mistake is that they seemingly believe there is pushback because people misunderstand how it works. The reality is more nuanced: People understand exactly how it works, and how it works is that it is turn-key onboard spyware, that Apple pinky-swears isn't being used wrong today . For example if the scope/mission expands (e.g. foreign governments), suddenly you've created a drag-net for whatever "badness" is o…

You nailed it. Apple is so flexible with their morals when money is on the line you know this will be abused by some authoritarian government. They will ask apple to scan for some content, apple will say no, the government will ban apple from selling their products, and suddenly apple will change their mind. Next thing you know a huge swath of journalists or dissidents is being disappeared to reeducation camps. Apple is working overtime to wrestle the “most evil company in the world” title from google and amazon.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#337

Post by juniperplant »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #327
almostdigital wrote: post #10

A system on my phone where it has a list of bad files and a threshold on how many of those files are allowed. If the threshold is reached Apple can read them. Both the bad files list and threshold is controlled by Apple and is explicitly designed to be un-auditable... Honestly I would have been fine with Apple scanning my all photos after they are uploaded to iCloud but this is deeply disturbing

This is how I feel as well. I don’t use iCloud photos but if I did, sure scan them for CP, I don’t care. Maybe you will catch some bad guys that willingly gave you their photos. But scanning everyone’s phones is beyond creepy and feels like exactly what the fourth amendment is about. It’s British soldiers suddenly having the ability to search EVERY home in colonial America as often as they want. > Amendment 4. The ri…

May I ask what phone? I am not here to criticize.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#339

Post by matwood »

almostdigital wrote: post #10

A system on my phone where it has a list of bad files and a threshold on how many of those files are allowed. If the threshold is reached Apple can read them. Both the bad files list and threshold is controlled by Apple and is explicitly designed to be un-auditable... Honestly I would have been fine with Apple scanning my all photos after they are uploaded to iCloud but this is deeply disturbing

> Honestly I would have been fine with Apple scanning my all photos after they are uploaded to iCloud

Apple has already been doing exactly this for years. Now they are going to check the photos right before uploading to iCloud which is actually more privacy friendly than they do now. It also lets Apple turn on e2e for iCloud photos if they want.

I understand the 'what if' and slippery slope arguments, but wow, there is so much misunderstanding in this thread. Apple makes the OS and doesn't need a fancy system to scan all the files on the device if that's what they want to do.

I highly suggest reading this: https://www.apple.com/child-safety/ and the associated PDFs. Apple PR hosed this up by putting 3 distinct features on one page that people seem to be conflating.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#340

Post by Cederfjard »

xyzzyz wrote: post #257
ASalazarMX wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes the slippery slope is not a fallacy, but the natural consequence of seeking more control. This feature can be horribly misused in the future, for example, to find people who have sent/received/downloaded Tiannanmen pictures, because instant messaging pictures can be automatically added to your albums. You can't trust a feature whose only impediment from being abused in the future is such pinky promise.

If I learned anything in my lifetime, it’s that “slippery slope” is not, in fact, a fallacy at all. Rather, it’s a rule of thumb.

It is only a fallacy when it’s not backed up by solid reasoning. There are obviously slippery slopes. And sometimes they aren’t there, even though people claim they are. It’s a shame that some have been conditioned to immediately make the connection between the two.
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