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An open letter against Apple's new privacy-invasive client-side content scanning

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Re: An open letter against Apple's new privacy-invasive client-side content scanning

#251

Post by matwood »

marcellus23 wrote: post #233
alerighi wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the server side. That is the difference. I know that if I put something on Google Drive it is in clear in the Google servers. What I don't want is Google performing a scan of the internal memory of my Android device! Server side they can do whatever they want, and I choose what data they can access, but on my device not.

You know it’s still only photos being uploaded to iCloud that are scanned right? Or are you just totally unfamiliar with the actual issue? If you are familiar, can you explain the practical difference between these approaches that makes one worse?

Reading these comments, I think most people have only read Twitter outrage or the flat out wrong news articles conflating the new features. This is also on Apple as they had to know the CSAM on the client was a big deal and really needed it's own PR page.

Re: An open letter against Apple's new privacy-invasive client-side content scanning

#252

Post by ksec »

bArray wrote: post #41

Honestly I'm glad to see a non-insignificant amount of people in tech take this seriously, especially when the goal Apple announces appears to be for the greater good. It can be hard to stand on the side that doesn't immediately appear to be correct. We have already lost so many freedoms for 'national security' and other such blanket terminology. Just be warned, there will be those that unfairly try to cast this as h…

I actually view this as not a good sign. That many are still in the very very early stage of shock, what Apple is doing does not align with their perceived values. Deducting points from Apple in their own mental model. They write these letter because they think Apple is still mostly good and hope they could have a change of heart.

What would happen as some others have pointed out, people will forget about it. Apple will bump out decent Mac products line, along with very good iPhone hardware in a few months time. Which will add points back to their mental model.

"May be Apple is really doing it in good faith"

"They aren't so bad, let's wait and see."

Apple's marketing and PR have changed in the past 5 - 6 years. My guess is their KPI had changed. And they will ( successfully ) white wash any doubt you have. And 2022 Q1 results ( That is the iPhone 13 launch quarter ) will be record breaking again.

And that is not even including competition. I mean for pete sake is Microsoft or Google even trying to compete? ( I give credit to their Surface Laptop and Pixel team, but still far from enough )

Re: An open letter against Apple's new privacy-invasive client-side content scanning

#253

Post by matwood »

jpxw wrote: post #139

Unpopular opinion: I think the outrage over this is quite overblown. This kind of hash checking is done by damn near all cloud providers - Google Photos, Dropbox, Gmail, Discord, Reddit, OneDrive, Facebook, Twitter, you name it. Apple have actually been very reluctant to implement this. If you don’t like it, you don’t need to enable iCloud Photos. In the exact same way as if you don’t want your images scanned by Drop…

Not sure why you're downvoted (too many facts in one post I guess lol), but you're right. I wanted to add that Apple has already been doing CSAM scanning on photos uploaded to iCloud for years. They moved it to the client instead (I think in preparation in make iCloud photos e2e encrypted).

Turn off iCloud photos and it turns off CSAM.

Re: An open letter against Apple's new privacy-invasive client-side content scanning

#254

Post by simonh »

ajconway wrote: post #248
simonh wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be fine except an informed choice depends on accurate information, and this letter starts off saying things that are patently false. “ Apple's proposed technology works by continuously monitoring photos saved or shared on the user's iPhone, iPad, or Mac. ” No it doesn’t, photos just saved in the phone are never scanned by either of the systems Apple is implementing, and shared photos are only scanned in tw…

Probably the main issue is that every time a technology or regulation that starts like that (“you don’t need to worry if you’re not doing anything wrong”) is then inevitably expanded into repressive activities by governments around the world.

Oh absolutely, the laws that started all of this are terribly thought through, all a child pornographer has to do to avoid these controls is not use iCloud Photo Library. That's it, just do that and they can have as much child porn on their phones as they like, and share it however they like using iMessage or anything else.

Re: An open letter against Apple's new privacy-invasive client-side content scanning

#255

Post by valparaiso »

tcldr wrote: post #110
0xy wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NCMEC's database already contains non-CSAM. What you suggest is not theoretical, it's reality today. I really think people are missing this point. NCMEC's database is not an infallible, audited and trustworthy source of despicable imagery. It's a mess contributed to by thousands of companies, individuals and police. It's also so intertwined with the FBI that I don't think it's truly correct to call NCMEC independent,…

Wow. Also, many people trust Apple to do ‘the right thing’. But if Apple are trusting NCMEC and their local equivalents to provide valid CSAM hashes, Apple will never know if their technology is being abused, so they can conveniently point the finger elsewhere if it is. I can’t imagine this point has escaped their awareness.

No post body was provided.

Re: An open letter against Apple's new privacy-invasive client-side content scanning

#256

Post by rjzzleep »

jkaplowitz wrote: post #236
rjzzleep wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact, it's also the only place that I know of where you can get fined for calling a German a Nazi.

In many countries (including the US) there are circumstances where defamation law can create civil or criminal liability for such a claim, but yeah, usually not merely for stating it without certain other things also being true about the situation. Conversely, there are cases in Germany where calling someone a Nazi would not lead to a fine. One very clear example: Person A: [Unambiguously asserts a sincere adherence…

I'm not talking about defamation. I can understand why you would infer that. The fine I'm talking about is about "feeling insulted". There doesn't even have to be a third person present. Say someone treats you in a racist way, you call him Nazi, judge can order you to pay 400 Euros(or more depending how damaging he thinks you may have been to his feelings) for hurting his feelings. No need to have a witness prove it either. It's a purely subjective judgement.

You calling someone Nazi to shut down someone in public actually seems to work well to shut down public discourse judging from what I'm observing in Germany right now. I don't think those defamation lawsuits go anywhere(even though they should).

Re: An open letter against Apple's new privacy-invasive client-side content scanning

#258

Post by that_guy_iain »

ssss11 wrote: post #50

Related but slightly off-topic: am I the only one that thinks more technology is not the answer to catching crooks? Can’t the police do good old fashioned police work to catch people doing these things? Why does EVERYONE need to be surveilled for the 0.01% (or less?) who don’t behave properly. To further this point: why do we need cameras on every street, facial recognition systems and 3-letter orgs storing huge data…

Well what they’re searching for is done privately and the victims often don’t go the police. And good old fashion policing was to ignore these crimes.

Re: An open letter against Apple's new privacy-invasive client-side content scanning

#259

Post by mtreis86 »

brigandish wrote: post #120
dijit wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can’t speak for everybody of course, but I am currently planning the migration away from the Apple ecosystem and I’m heavily invested (watch, phone, MacBook, Mac Pro, Apple TV). I’ve also been recommending to friends and family to move to droids with microG. The largest concern I have for them is that they’re stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. Most people aren’t going to run a droid without google, or Lin…

> I am currently planning the migration away from the Apple ecosystem Me too. I told my wife today that I'll be looking at a feature phone as I'm not sure I can be bothered with jumping through all the hoops required to de-Google an Android phone. I remember a time before mobile phones, I was just fine without one - smartphones aren't that good, just convenient.

Pixel phone running GrapheneOS, you'd have to jump through hoops to get google back on the thing.

Re: An open letter against Apple's new privacy-invasive client-side content scanning

#260

Post by busymom0 »

ksec wrote: post #252
bArray wrote: post #41

Honestly I'm glad to see a non-insignificant amount of people in tech take this seriously, especially when the goal Apple announces appears to be for the greater good. It can be hard to stand on the side that doesn't immediately appear to be correct. We have already lost so many freedoms for 'national security' and other such blanket terminology. Just be warned, there will be those that unfairly try to cast this as h…

I actually view this as not a good sign. That many are still in the very very early stage of shock, what Apple is doing does not align with their perceived values. Deducting points from Apple in their own mental model. They write these letter because they think Apple is still mostly good and hope they could have a change of heart. What would happen as some others have pointed out, people will forget about it. Apple w…

Fair point and you are probably right. However, this is getting them a ton of bad press from pretty major players in the privacy world (Edward Snowden for example). This has high chances of a lot of people abandoning Apple products (I'll no longer purchase new apple products and already switching over to de-googled Android).

Privacy is obviously just a marketing play by Apple but this time, they can't hide it and it might actually hurt their bottom line.

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