The Problem with Perceptual Hashes • Hacker News Board

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#271

Post by avnigo » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 9:47 AM UTC

> These cases will be manually reviewed. That is, according to Apple, an Apple employee will then look at your (flagged) pictures.

I'm surprised this hasn't gotten enough traction outside of tech news media.

Remember the mass celebrity "hacking" of iCloud accounts a few years ago? I wonder how those celebrities would feel knowing that some of their photos may be falsely flagged and shown to other people. And that we expect those humans to act like robots and not sell or leak the photos, etc.

Again, I'm surprised we haven't seen a far bigger outcry in the general news media about this yet, but I'm glad to see a lot of articles shining light on how easy it is for false positives and hash collisions to occur, especially at the scale of all iCloud photos.

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#272

Post by delusional » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 9:59 AM UTC

ezoe wrote: post #110

The problem of hash or NN based matching is, the authority can avoid explaining the mismatch. Suppose the authority want to false-arrest you. They prepare a hash that matches to an innocent image they knew the target has in his Apple product. They hand that hash to the Apple, claiming it's a hash from a child abuse image and demand privacy-invasive searching for the greater good. Then, Apple report you have a file th…

What about trolling. Assume 4chan figures out apples algorithm. What now happens when they start generating memes that happen to match known child pornography? Will anyone who saves those memes (or repost them to reddit/facebook) be flagged? What will apple do once flagged false positive photos go viral?

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#273

Post by goldenkey » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 9:59 AM UTC

CuriousCosmic wrote: post #266

goldenkey wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mean liberal values. The paradox of the left includes censorship, gun control, etc..

FYI Illiberal values aka non-liberal values (clarifying because the I is hard to read) use the word liberal in the traditional sense. Liberal values are liberty/freedom, consent of the governed, and equality before the law. All other liberal values build off of these three as a base. This implies that Non-liberal (or illiberal) values are the opposition of liberal values through censorship, gun control, etc like you…

Those are great but the left in its current form pushes for larger and larger government. I believe that large government is incompatible with freedom. A hammer will always find a nail given enough time for bad actors to exploit the search space.

Marxism prescribes the atrophy of the state: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withering_away_of_the_state

The left as it stands in its current dominant form, is a hypocrisy of incompatibles.

True liberalism as you describe it, doesn't exist in any first world country. It's been bundled into larger and larger government creep which inevitably tramples on individual rights.

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#274

Post by judge2020 » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 10:00 AM UTC

avnigo wrote: post #271

> These cases will be manually reviewed. That is, according to Apple, an Apple employee will then look at your (flagged) pictures. I'm surprised this hasn't gotten enough traction outside of tech news media. Remember the mass celebrity "hacking" of iCloud accounts a few years ago? I wonder how those celebrities would feel knowing that some of their photos may be falsely flagged and shown to other people. And that we…

They wouldn't be falsely flagged. It doesn't detect naked photos, it detects photos matching real confirmed CSAM based on the NCMEC's database.

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#275

Post by jokoon » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 10:01 AM UTC

awestroke wrote: post #245

jokoon wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suppose the authority want to false-arrest you. Why would they want that?

Oh, sweet, naive child.

I'm not american, I'm just asking a simple question.

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#276

Post by jokoon » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 10:01 AM UTC

nicce wrote: post #246

jokoon wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suppose the authority want to false-arrest you. Why would they want that?

Corruption. Lack of evidence on some other cases. Personal revenge. Who knows, but list is big.

Ok but but what ends?

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#277

Post by siscia » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 10:08 AM UTC

What I am missing from all this story, is what triggered Apple to put in place, or even think about, this system.

It is clearly a no-trivial project, no other company is doing it, and it will be one of the rare case of a company doing something not for shareholders value but for "goodwill".

I am really not understanding the reasoning behind this choice.

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#278

Post by mrtksn » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 10:11 AM UTC

goldenkey wrote: post #273

CuriousCosmic wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI Illiberal values aka non-liberal values (clarifying because the I is hard to read) use the word liberal in the traditional sense. Liberal values are liberty/freedom, consent of the governed, and equality before the law. All other liberal values build off of these three as a base. This implies that Non-liberal (or illiberal) values are the opposition of liberal values through censorship, gun control, etc like you…

Those are great but the left in its current form pushes for larger and larger government. I believe that large government is incompatible with freedom. A hammer will always find a nail given enough time for bad actors to exploit the search space. Marxism prescribes the atrophy of the state: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withering_away_of_the_state The left as it stands in its current dominant form, is a hypocrisy of…

The confusion seems to arise from Americans calling the democrats "the left". It's like fighting over which brand of chips is the best, Lays or Pringles.

A tip: These are not chips.

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#279

Post by auggierose » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 10:13 AM UTC

judge2020 wrote: post #274

avnigo wrote: post #271

> These cases will be manually reviewed. That is, according to Apple, an Apple employee will then look at your (flagged) pictures. I'm surprised this hasn't gotten enough traction outside of tech news media. Remember the mass celebrity "hacking" of iCloud accounts a few years ago? I wonder how those celebrities would feel knowing that some of their photos may be falsely flagged and shown to other people. And that we…

They wouldn't be falsely flagged. It doesn't detect naked photos, it detects photos matching real confirmed CSAM based on the NCMEC's database.

If that would always work, a manual review would not be necessary. Just send the flagged photo and its owner straight to the police.

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#280

Post by awestroke » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 10:16 AM UTC

jokoon wrote: post #275

awestroke wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, sweet, naive child.

I'm not american, I'm just asking a simple question.

Corrupt governments and police forces are not unique to the US (although it seems like the police in the US has become corrupt through and through).