I do use vim tho, as it comes with default installation and has useful regex search, nice to quick edit files
The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy
181–190 of 267 posts
Re: The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
With respect to LaTeX, I only started to use it semi-recently in the cloud and I'd recommend it to anyone (but only in the cloud). I don't want to master an editor anymore. I want to get work done. Pretty much the same with LaTeX. When I want to improve something in a doc, I look it up and do that. When I go back to the doc later, I don't always remember what that magic meant. But that's ok, I'm writing a doc. I'm no…
> With respect to LaTeX, I only started to use it semi-recently in the cloud and I'd recommend it to anyone (but only in the cloud). $ latexmk -pdf main.tex How hard is that? The only thing Overleaf adds here is a button and a 10x compilation time overhead. > I don't always remember what that magic meant. Overleaf mostly won't help you here, unless I'm mistaken. I don't mean to be aggressive here, I just don't get th…
Re: The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy
#183As far as I know, there is no other editor with this capability. Sure, they all let you write "plug-ins" but none of them let you do your work by writing code interactively, alongside normal editing commands and GUI operations. As a programmer, this is how I want to do everything with my computer.
I don't have many customizations (I have something to move lines with the alt-key like Eclipse, and I swap parens and square bracket keys so it's faster to write Lisp) and I don't even know many keyboard shortcuts, but I write bits of Elisp all the time to perform large scale text manipulations, generate Java and html boilerplate at work etc. Having everything happen inside my editor, being able to use an editable buffer as an ad-hoc input source to a program just makes everything more fluid and interactive than doing the same thing with scripting languages on the command line.
It kind of baffles me that the Emacs people don't push this angle very much. There's hardly anything about it on the website. You'd think Emacs was just another editor with hundreds of keyboard shortcuts and a strange gui.
Re: The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy
#184Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Its largest competitor, VSCode, Just Works most of the time! You load a file, it detects your intent, and it will install the necessary extensions _along with any additional system packages necessary_. Compare this to Emacs, where it's usually quite unclear what packages to use and what tools they need to operate. Eglot? lsp-mode? Which language major mode, and which language server? How do I get them to work with…
VSCode allows you to write in Javascript what Emacs allows you to write in elisp. What's missing?
Or ar least that was my experience though I was in my prime when I learned Emacs decades ago and almost 60 years old when I spent the 80 hours learning how to modify VSCode.
(I feel I have barely scratched the surface of VSCode and of web tech.)
Web tech gives you a greater degree of control: e.g., Emacs Lisp cannot put red sqiggles under text like VSCode does, but rather limits the user interface essentially to one large "textarea" (though in contrast to TTY interfaces, Emacs has good support for the mouse), but it is very rare for me to want web tech's greater degree of control.
One more thing. For years I went without internet access in my home, yet during those years I continued my habit of doing my emacs modifying at home: all I needed to do was make sure I had the Emacs Lisp reference manual and the Emacs Lisp source-code package installed. On every Linux distro I have used, these are standard packages, and they are all the information I needed to make most of the modifications I made to my local Emacs environment. In contrast, although there are troves of documentation on web tech, I have never succeeded in making a usable offline local copy of any of these troves, and wouldn't consider trying to modify (or explore the internals of) VSCode without constant access to the net.
Re: The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy
#185Earlier quoted context omitted.
> And it's not just the "big" things. When I want to sort a few lines in a region and immediately discover that I can just call "sort-lines", because of course I can, I know that I'm not going to bother waiting for some other editor to catch up in all those little things. FWIW this is something most editors let you do trivially. With VS Code, select the lines you want to sort, press Cmd-Shift-P to bring up fuzzy comm…
I find the overhead of selecting a pop up, having it appear, often then using the mouse to select something, then pressing do is just clumsy compared to the low overhead command structure of Emacs. Search is a primary cursor move operation, for example.
Re: The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy
#186Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Admittedly, I haven't tried modern distributions like spacemacs and DOOM Emacs, but it's a bit hard for me to imagine that you won't need to come face to face with "emacsism" at some time. Speaking from the experience of someone who has repeatedly bounced off Emacs for going on two decades now, you absolutely will. :) > When I want to sort a few lines in a region and immediately discover that I can just call "sort-…
Top of my head, I am pretty sure that I can do that with a "keyboard macro" involving list-matching-lines, and delete-matching-lines (that is literally what the commands are called). "Keyboard macro" by the way is a good and a bad name at once: It does not fully describe the vastly more powerful feature, as it is much more semantic than just repetition of keystrokes, but at its surface it looks like that and helps yo…
Re: The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy
#187I like Emacs because it's a live programming environment focused on the editing of text. As far as I know, there is no other editor with this capability. Sure, they all let you write "plug-ins" but none of them let you do your work by writing code interactively, alongside normal editing commands and GUI operations. As a programmer, this is how I want to do everything with my computer. I don't have many customizations…
Unless you've tried one, "a car" or "a fully dynamic, programmable editing environment" is just not on people's minds.
Re: The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy
#188Earlier quoted context omitted.
Imagine a carpenter saying, "I don't want to master my tools, I just want to build things."
I once worked with a pretty amazing older Common Lisp programmer who used some IDE (Xanalys?) He selected forms by dragging with the mouse. Watching that felt uncomfortable, almost like physical pain. I tried to get him into paredit, but he smiled a little and said his brain isn't so fast that it could keep up with frantic fingers like mine. Indeed, he worked out things in his head before splashing into the buffers a…
Re: The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy
#189Earlier quoted context omitted.
About point 2, this can be done with vscode using this extension https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ms-vscod... This explains it https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/remote/ssh-tutorial There's a similar extension to work within containers https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ms-vscod...
Emacs has TRAMP as well out of the box, but for some reason they want o launch a lightweight cli instance of emacs on the serverside, which VSCode can't do.
Re: The Emacs Lock-In Effect or the Emacs Sunk Cost Fallacy
#190[W]hatever I've learned for technologies like Emacs, LaTeX, GNU/Linux, and so forth in the nineties, is still valid and useful to me nowadays. This can not be stressed enough: instead of un-learning and re-learning, I was able to improve and learn new things. This scales much better than any proprietary or temporary knowledge.
Even though I don't use emacs,[1] the point here is one that I've long realised and was instrumental when I was looking at potential directions to go with technology in the early 1990s.
I'd had experience across a number of computer systems, small and large, and all but Unix were proprietary. I'd already seen hard-won knowledge expired, often in a few years, as platforms or tools were eclipsed. And Unix was more fun...
Learning vi on the uni shared-access Unix server in the 1980s was a few weeks of pain and confusion. It's paid off handsomly over the subsequent 35+ years, as did basic fluency in the shell and its tools. Over time I've added to my toolset. Very occasionally old tools are replaced entirely, though quite often replacements themselves seek to retain interface (commands, keystrokes) compatibility.
I've also spent time (and occasionally money) learning proprietary systems ... virtually all of which are not entirely dead to me. Some still exist in small niches, others have all but disappeared.
In Future Shock, Alvin Toffler argues that in the future (that is, now), success will be determined not by those who can learn, but by those who can successfully unlearn old patterns. The older I get, the less likely this seems to be true. Unlearning is vastly more difficult than learning. Far better to get on a technological track in which basic principles, tools, and interfaces are adopted and retained as long as practicably possible, in a modular fashion. This avoids requiring wholesale skills obsolescence, provides for maximal skills retention and accretion, and where unlearning is absolutely required, tends to localise it to specific areas.
Voit's essay touches on several useful concepts directly or by reference (learning, unlearning, knowledge capital). I'd like to add another: the Lindy Effect. That's the tendency of things which have existed for a long time to continue existing. In technology it seems to be largely true. In particular, long-lived free and open tools seem to be good bets for continued relevance.
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Notes:
1. I did pick it up at one point and used it with some facility for a number of months. This was at a time that having ones own Unix or Linux server was still quite a novelty, and my manager at the next gig was an idiot who didn't believe in installing any software which wasn't shipped by the vendor. Life lesson: don't work for idiots, or let them dictate your opportunities.