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In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

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Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#271

Post by norov »

ummonk wrote: post #265
toxik wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So stop the circulating. This is like trying to stop people from using drugs by searching EVERYONE’S homes and reporting suspicious looking substances.

"So stop the circulating." Good idea. Any ideas how we could do that? Perhaps one thing that would help is to implement a system that hashes circulating images to ensure they aren't known images of child sexual abuse. Just a thought.

A lot of unwanted kids out there that end up in broken homes or on the street. There are also a lot of kids born in abusive families.

Good ideas to stop the circulating would be to increase birth control education and access, increase foster care funding and access, implement common sense policies for adoption, and increase funding for Child Protective Services.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#272

Post by 2Gkashmiri »

Someone1234 wrote: post #38

Apple's mistake is that they seemingly believe there is pushback because people misunderstand how it works. The reality is more nuanced: People understand exactly how it works, and how it works is that it is turn-key onboard spyware, that Apple pinky-swears isn't being used wrong today . For example if the scope/mission expands (e.g. foreign governments), suddenly you've created a drag-net for whatever "badness" is o…

yes. i live in a small 8 million strong "valley" where the government is hellbent on destroying people. https://kashmirobserver.net/2021/07/10/11-govt-employees-inc...

they sacked these government employees because they allegedly were engaged in "anti-national activities", no courts, no trial, no hearing. just sentencing that since you are allgedly found to be engaged in such activities, your employment is terminated and there is no recourse. https://www.organiser.org/Encyc/2021/8/3/Govt-s-policy-of-No...

here they have decided to not give passports to protesters or give then government jobs because "anti national activities" again the same trope. this might be a small issue but here is a jounalist https://thewire.in/rights/kashmiri-journalist-masrat-zahra-p... whose father was beaten to a pulp because she being a decorated journalist had criticized the government, they slapped terrorism charges on her and german government gave her asylum so they did the next best thing, hurt her parents because why not. now if she didnt have her passport because she was already a known suspect of "anti national activities", asylum might be a little difficult so they want that.

i know 100% indian government and for that matter pakistan government as well will use this technology for "national interests" in finding out protesters and dissidents and they either do not even go for trials or if they do, the same are sham ones so doesn't matter if they make a show of a trial because the guilty are condemned already.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#273

Post by 0xy »

zimpenfish wrote: post #206
Animats wrote: post #152

Take a close look at the way this works. If there are enough hash matches, Apple apparently gets to look at all the pictures on the phone. The description says "threshold reached, all content visible and unlocked". "All", not "Matched". Matches can be forced from the outside, by sending pictures to the phone. They don't even have to be from the known-bad image set. Using an adversarial system to try to create hash ma…

> If there are enough hash matches, Apple apparently gets to look at all the pictures on the phone. Not according to the technical summary PDF they released[1], "Only those images that have a voucher that corresponds to a true CSAM match can have their vouchers’ data decrypted [...] Even if the device-generated inner encryption key for the account is reconstructed based on the above process, the image information ins…

This is spin by Apple, driven by ignorance or deliberately misleading statements. NCMEC's database contains images that are not CSAM, not illegal and are not even borderline (grey area).

The fact there is a match in NCMEC's database does not mean the content is CSAM. It does not even mean it's illegal. In fact, it doesn't even mean there's a single person in the picture frame.

And no, this is not theoretical. NCMEC's database is this much of a mess today.

In fact, given there's a threshold at all I'm pushed into believing that Apple know the database is faulty.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#274

Post by kyriakos »

jacquesm wrote: post #254
kyriakos wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies don't have to be ethical, they just have to be legal.

This is the sort of reasoning that got us into all this crap in the first place, and it certainly won't get us out of it.

Not saying its good but these are the facts. Companies try to maximise profit within the boundaries of the law.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#275

Post by kyriakos »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #195
kyriakos wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could this be related to Epic's case? Opening up iOS can be argued will allow to circumvent things just like this one.

Not in a way that makes much sense. Allowing other stores wouldn't break the sandboxing.

Apple seems to use the fact that they vet all apps themselves as an argument in their case, so to me it does make sense.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#276

Post by an_account_name »

megous wrote: post #247
pinum wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About that "manual review"... Refer to pages 10 and 11 of the technical paper. >The server then uses the decryption key to decrypt the inner encryption layer and extract the NeuralHash and visual derivatives for the CSAM matches. This "visual derivative" term shows up repeatedly. To me, the implication seems to be that Apple doesn't look at the actual suspected image before deciding whether to proceed with a report.…

Visual derivative is a preprocessed picture itself, and it's part of the "safety voucher". It may be grayscale and resized/normalized in other ways. Only apple knows exactly what it is. It's only a matter of time until internet trolls find a way to abuse this. The database is stored on user's devices, so someone downloading it and permuting innocuous images enough until they match the database, and then spreading the…

If they can do a manual review at all, then there isn’t end to end encryption anymore, so I’m missing what the point of client side scanning is.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#277

Post by sneak »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #263

Isn't this covered by the 4th Amendment? The fact that Apple is doing it and not US.GOV is irrelevant, because the explicit intent is to check for content-deemed-illegal on a personal device and Apple is clearly just a cutout. Worse - unless the "perceptual hash" tech is better than anyone suspects, most of the images flagged will be personal images of consenting adults. So Apple - and possibly US.GOV - ends up with…

Apple already has that data via iCloud Photos, on by default on every iPhone. It's not e2e and Apple can already read all of it.

They turn over this data for over 30,000 users each year to the USG without a warrant, per their own transparency report.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#279

Post by aaronmdjones »

I'm seeing lots of news and pushback about the iCloud scanning stuff, but not a lot of news about the iMessage scanning and sharing stuff.

I'm not a parent, thankfully; but if I were, I'm not sure I'd be entirely comfortable with the idea of other parents seeing my child naked. Even if I don't sign my child's account up for this scanning thing, the recipient could well be, and they won't be warned about that before sending it.

This is an abusive parent's wet dream waiting to happen, and it disgusts me. Minors should be free to explore their sexuality with their peers. It's how we grow as people.

EDIT: Upon further thought; how is this NOT illegal? How else can this be framed than "Apple knowingly and willingly assists in the dissemination of child pornography into the hands of adults"?

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#280

Post by intricatedetail »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #200
baq wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no viable option if you want a quality smartphone. Androids spy on you already. Apple will be spying on you. The dark side of economies of scale.

We are not here by accident. Those are symptoms of a public that doesn't care. We have been explaining the consequences of each choice for techs during the last 20 years. I've had the talk with my friends and familly many times. Very patiently. Very nicely. Nobody cares. It's just an annoyance for them. And it requires an enormous more amounr of energy to live your live this way than not caring. Even more if you gott…

Most people believe they are good and conforming. They don't believe anything would happen to them because of what Apple does and they don't want to be seen as those defending abusers right to privacy.
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