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In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

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Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#191

Post by jimbob45 »

Someone1234 wrote: post #38

Apple's mistake is that they seemingly believe there is pushback because people misunderstand how it works. The reality is more nuanced: People understand exactly how it works, and how it works is that it is turn-key onboard spyware, that Apple pinky-swears isn't being used wrong today . For example if the scope/mission expands (e.g. foreign governments), suddenly you've created a drag-net for whatever "badness" is o…

I disagree. Google announced the same thing for Google Drive and didn’t receive this level of pushback. If you’re Apple, the only way that’s possible is if you explained it badly (i.e. differently than Google did).

I’m guessing their real prerogative is to keep unlawful content from ever reaching their servers. You wouldn’t know that from reading their press releases though.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#192

Post by seanieb »

rudian wrote: post #114

Let’s not confuse the 2 parts that Apple is implementing; - one is parental control, it’s upon request, uses ML, it’s “local” (that is, it’s sent to the parent) - the other one is plain hash matching, which does not “save the children” but rather is “catch the viewer” — exclusively. This has no impact on the abuse of the CSAM subjects because it only matches publicly-known content. I don’t know why NCMEC is excited s…

So you’re technically correct, operationally incorrect. When CSAM is detected there is also the possibility of new, unhashed, CSAM being found amongst the suspects other files.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#193

Post by verygoodname »

xxs wrote: post #145
Someone1234 wrote: post #38

Apple's mistake is that they seemingly believe there is pushback because people misunderstand how it works. The reality is more nuanced: People understand exactly how it works, and how it works is that it is turn-key onboard spyware, that Apple pinky-swears isn't being used wrong today . For example if the scope/mission expands (e.g. foreign governments), suddenly you've created a drag-net for whatever "badness" is o…

>"A cryptographic hash + file size combo" SHA already uses the length in the output hash. Having the explicit length is quite superfluous

> Having the explicit length is quite superfluous

Not entirely. It makes it so that, to achieve a "full" collision, you have to ensure that the sets of data collide both in SHA hash and in length, helping to prevent attacks that rely on appending/prepending/removing data (for example, "length extension attacks" involve manipulation of the hash by appending data).

TL;DR: It is harder to find a collision SHA(B) for SHA(A) if you add the additional constraint that the length of B must match the length of A.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#195

Post by Dylan16807 »

kyriakos wrote: post #184
RavlaAlvar wrote: post #73

I really don’t understand why apple is doing this. What point are they trying to score and from whom ? Do they think implementing a spyware in iPhone would boost sales? Or does it bring revenue from charging government agency to use this feature? I just don’t get it.

Could this be related to Epic's case? Opening up iOS can be argued will allow to circumvent things just like this one.

Not in a way that makes much sense. Allowing other stores wouldn't break the sandboxing.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#196

Post by shuckles »

dannyw wrote: post #190
shuckles wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disabling end to end encryption is always “one configuration change” away, presumably by substituting keys. How closely do you keep track of which keys are used to encrypt Health data - which is end to end encrypted - versus photos - which are not?

If Apple substitutes keys, then that is a detectable event (by jailbroken devices) and that would make news. This is Apple explicitly announcing they are actively backdooring all iOS and Mac devices, and using your CPU cycles to determine whether you should be reported to the government.

Not really. Key management is done by the SEP, which can’t be introspected. And again, database updates take an iOS update so the back door threat is the exact same.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#197

Post by zimpenfish »

eurasiantiger wrote: post #89
ASalazarMX wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes the slippery slope is not a fallacy, but the natural consequence of seeking more control. This feature can be horribly misused in the future, for example, to find people who have sent/received/downloaded Tiannanmen pictures, because instant messaging pictures can be automatically added to your albums. You can't trust a feature whose only impediment from being abused in the future is such pinky promise.

Add hashes of police uniforms and now you cannot take pictures of law enforcement. Add hashes of politicians. Businessmen in suits. Army uniforms. At the end you have a weapon that can only shoot civilians.

Ok but PhotoDNA has been doing this scanning for a decade, I believe, and none of these things have happened despite how easy it would seem to be?

Or have Microsoft, Google, Apple, Facebook, etc., been doing this with such stealth that no-one has actually noticed it happening yet?

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#198

Post by ssklash »

baq wrote: post #171
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #128

Unfortunalty if our experience from the past with such events teaches us anything, it's that a minority of us will stop using apple products (or keep not doing it) but the rest of the world will quickly forget and carry on as usual. Worse, if your decision to not use an iphone makes others people life slightly anoying for 2 seconds a week, many will bash on you. As a FOSS user with no FB nor whatsapp account that ask…

There is no viable option if you want a quality smartphone. Androids spy on you already. Apple will be spying on you. The dark side of economies of scale.

A Pixel with CalyxOS is a viable option in my experience.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#199

Post by chaostheory »

jimbob45 wrote: post #191
Someone1234 wrote: post #38

Apple's mistake is that they seemingly believe there is pushback because people misunderstand how it works. The reality is more nuanced: People understand exactly how it works, and how it works is that it is turn-key onboard spyware, that Apple pinky-swears isn't being used wrong today . For example if the scope/mission expands (e.g. foreign governments), suddenly you've created a drag-net for whatever "badness" is o…

I disagree. Google announced the same thing for Google Drive and didn’t receive this level of pushback. If you’re Apple, the only way that’s possible is if you explained it badly (i.e. differently than Google did). I’m guessing their real prerogative is to keep unlawful content from ever reaching their servers. You wouldn’t know that from reading their press releases though.

The difference is that Google doesn’t advertise itself as a bastion of privacy. Google spying on you is expected. More consumers also pay for iCloud vs Google Drive. Expectations change when you’re paying for a service.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#200

Post by BiteCode_dev »

baq wrote: post #171
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #128

Unfortunalty if our experience from the past with such events teaches us anything, it's that a minority of us will stop using apple products (or keep not doing it) but the rest of the world will quickly forget and carry on as usual. Worse, if your decision to not use an iphone makes others people life slightly anoying for 2 seconds a week, many will bash on you. As a FOSS user with no FB nor whatsapp account that ask…

There is no viable option if you want a quality smartphone. Androids spy on you already. Apple will be spying on you. The dark side of economies of scale.

We are not here by accident. Those are symptoms of a public that doesn't care. We have been explaining the consequences of each choice for techs during the last 20 years. I've had the talk with my friends and familly many times. Very patiently. Very nicely.

Nobody cares. It's just an annoyance for them.

And it requires an enormous more amounr of energy to live your live this way than not caring. Even more if you gotta explain.

And so here we are.

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