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In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

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Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#111

Post by mpalmer »

RavlaAlvar wrote: post #78
mpalmer wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could be throwing a bone to politicians who say E2E encryption protects criminals. Not saying I agree, but I could see this being a compromise on Apple's part.

They can’t be this stupid, right? They should know this has huge security implications. I can’t see how it can be justified for some political brownie point.

This is wholly speculation, but their view could be that they have two bad options to choose from, and they chose the option that didn't involve congressional hearings and public pressure to make changes that could be even more anti-privacy.

Again, pure speculation and really the most generous means of explaining this controversial decision.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#112

Post by eurasiantiger »

midev wrote: post #109
eurasiantiger wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you heard of the chilling effect?

Yeah, which is irrelevant to the discussion. This thread is about photos of law enforcement and politicians used to convict people on CP charges. Let's stick to the topic of discovery and how courts work.

Let’s conveniently ignore all the facts that speak against the planned dystopia, and focus on the positives of having all facets of your life constrained and controlled by authorities.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#113

Post by midev »

rdedev wrote: post #110
midev wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people misunderstand how it works You can literally read any thread on HN or Reddit to see this is the case. Thousands of comments about facial recognition and AI, completely misunderstanding how it works. The EFF article itself was FUD. The EFF article starts right off claiming a backdoor, which is completely incorrect. Taking hashes of client-side content is not a backdoor, and the EFF should be embarrassed for n…

This client side scanning of local files can be easily extended to scan the whole device. That's why the eff was calling it a backdoor. All it takes is for the right govt to put the right preassure on apple. In a way it's kinda worse than a backdoor since your phone is actively reporting any suspicious looking files to the authority all the time on its own. The govt dosent need to actively look for it. Just add the a…

> This client side scanning of local files can be easily extended to scan the whole device

Correct, Apple can access unencrypted files stored on your device.

> That's why the eff was calling it a backdoor

Accessing unencrypted files on a device is not a backdoor

> actively reporting any suspicious looking files to the authority all the time on its own

Yep, that's a problem. Not a backdoor, though.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#114

Post by rudian »

Let’s not confuse the 2 parts that Apple is implementing;

- one is parental control, it’s upon request, uses ML, it’s “local” (that is, it’s sent to the parent)

- the other one is plain hash matching, which does not “save the children” but rather is “catch the viewer” — exclusively. This has no impact on the abuse of the CSAM subjects because it only matches publicly-known content.

I don’t know why NCMEC is excited since stopping the viewer does not stop the abuse; This does not affect them.

Conspirationally speaking, it almost feels like things aren’t the way they’re described and Apple will in fact ML to detect new content and report that.

The threshold thing doesn’t even make sense otherwise. One known CSAM picture should be enough to trigger the report, but it sounds like they want better accuracy for ML detection.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#115

Post by midev »

eurasiantiger wrote: post #112
midev wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, which is irrelevant to the discussion. This thread is about photos of law enforcement and politicians used to convict people on CP charges. Let's stick to the topic of discovery and how courts work.

Let’s conveniently ignore all the facts that speak against the planned dystopia, and focus on the positives of having all facets of your life constrained and controlled by authorities.

I'm happy to have that discussion, I think it's critical and we need to update laws to protect privacy.

You still don't get to be technically incorrect, though. You still need to know how courts work, if you want to participate in that discussion.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#116

Post by eurasiantiger »

midev wrote: post #115
eurasiantiger wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s conveniently ignore all the facts that speak against the planned dystopia, and focus on the positives of having all facets of your life constrained and controlled by authorities.

I'm happy to have that discussion, I think it's critical and we need to update laws to protect privacy. You still don't get to be technically incorrect, though. You still need to know how courts work, if you want to participate in that discussion.

You have a lot of trust in your courts. Let’s hope it is not misplaced.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#117

Post by tasogare »

Someone1234 wrote: post #38

Apple's mistake is that they seemingly believe there is pushback because people misunderstand how it works. The reality is more nuanced: People understand exactly how it works, and how it works is that it is turn-key onboard spyware, that Apple pinky-swears isn't being used wrong today . For example if the scope/mission expands (e.g. foreign governments), suddenly you've created a drag-net for whatever "badness" is o…

> Apple's mistake is that they seemingly believe there is pushback because people misunderstand how it works.

They don't believe this. The lack of understanding trick is often used by governments and corporations because it robs the opposite party the choice to oppose, as opposition is framed as lack of understanding instead of a political choice. It's a semi-elaborate way of calling idiots people who disagree. This is why governments "educate" on topics they don't people to oppose.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#118

Post by AbrahamParangi »

whall6 wrote: post #92
ASalazarMX wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes the slippery slope is not a fallacy, but the natural consequence of seeking more control. This feature can be horribly misused in the future, for example, to find people who have sent/received/downloaded Tiannanmen pictures, because instant messaging pictures can be automatically added to your albums. You can't trust a feature whose only impediment from being abused in the future is such pinky promise.

Just because the slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy doesn’t mean we can’t use our minds to foresee possible next steps.

The slippery slope argument isn't even really a logical fallacy. In fact, I can think of a number of circumstances where it turned out to be true.

edit: here's an example of the slippery slope "fallacy" in action

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist."

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#119

Post by shuckles »

eurasiantiger wrote: post #90
shuckles wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would Apple want to do this? It doesn’t benefit them at all. Their competitive advantage is having people trust their devices, if not their values. People are making an extreme claim that Apple went out of their way to implement a fancy system to ruin their own value proposition, and the evidence they have to offer is mere speculation.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that device owners are the only customers of the Apple ecosystem.

Ambiguous retorts like this make you sound intelligent but offer little to the discussion. If the adversary is the USA or China, I have bad news for you: every major democracy has planned encryption regulation which is unimaginably worse than what was announced here.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#120

Post by Lammy »

Someone1234 wrote: post #38

Apple's mistake is that they seemingly believe there is pushback because people misunderstand how it works. The reality is more nuanced: People understand exactly how it works, and how it works is that it is turn-key onboard spyware, that Apple pinky-swears isn't being used wrong today . For example if the scope/mission expands (e.g. foreign governments), suddenly you've created a drag-net for whatever "badness" is o…

> Apple's mistake is that they seemingly believe there is pushback because people misunderstand how it works.

I've read too many contentious-change memos to believe it's a mistake. These things are authored by committee with Legal always present, and everything is written expecting it to leak. It's just a passive way to manufacture consent by convincing at least some segment of people to doubt their own thought processes. I'd call it "gaslighting" if that word wasn't already massively misused. See also: iPhone 4 owners who were "holding it wrong".

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