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Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

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Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#201

Post by usaar333 »

refurb wrote: post #132
graeme wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your thesis is flawed. It is illegal to build new dense walkable neighborhoods in almost all of north america. But existing neighbourhoods of that style tend to be both highly priced to live in and also popular tourist destinations, implying high desirability. The older east coat cities built walkable neighbourhoods before they became illegal.

Housing is actually more expensive outside of San Francisco, at least suburbs close to the city. I’d say there is more demand for a house with a yard in the suburbs than a 2 bedroom apartment in the city. Especially in a post-Covid world where people are working from home, who wants to be stuck in an apartment during the next lockdown?

> Housing is actually more expensive outside of San Francisco, at least suburbs close to the city.

Not per lot SQ feet

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#202

Post by grumblenum »

graeme wrote: post #69
cletus wrote: post #17

No, they don’t. This is a classic example of listening to what people say vs observing what they do. And it’s a good lesson in product development. Ask your users “do you want X?” And the answer is inevitably “yes”. Ask them “do you want A or B?” And you’ll start to get a better approximation of user behavior. Better yet is observing actual behavior. In this case Americans have chosen the suburbs in droves. Americans…

Your thesis is flawed. It is illegal to build new dense walkable neighborhoods in almost all of north america. But existing neighbourhoods of that style tend to be both highly priced to live in and also popular tourist destinations, implying high desirability. The older east coat cities built walkable neighbourhoods before they became illegal.

I've never dealt with a city in my region that didn't have variance procedures for building and land development permits. In my own experience, these committees are nearly a rubber stamp unless an adjacent property owner expects to be inconvenienced. You're observing what's called realized preferences.

Coffee-table planners seem content to frame everything as a political problem, as if developers are an extended civil service or some kind of unthinking machines. There is also an unsurprising lack of investigation into places in the world where zoning free-for-alls actually do exist. Most are not like Martha's Vinyard. Many people don't actually want to live in a favela, and they vote and spend their dollars accordingly.

The east coast built walkable neighborhoods because they were built before cars existed. Several of these states have a net negative domestic migration, which does not suggest that people want to live there.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#204

Post by userbinator »

version_five wrote: post #13
jackson1442 wrote: post #5

I like my car and I like driving. That said, I don't like driving _everywhere_. When I moved to university, it was incredibly freeing to just be able to walk somewhere I wanted to go rather than getting in my car and driving miles to get anywhere. I grew up in a suburb in Texas so walking anywhere except _maybe_ a friend's house was entirely out of the question. I visited Portland recently and it was lovely to be abl…

What's hardest to find, and what I prefer, is somewhere it's easy to walk and drive. I've lived in walkable places where if you do have to drive, traffic is a nightmare. And then of course there are places where you can drive without traffic but there is nowhere to walk to. I think I prefer the latter with my lifestyle, though it becomes more frustrating for meeting friends, going our for dinner + drinks, etc. For sp…

is somewhere it's easy to walk and drive

This exhibit from 1940 might be interesting:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Street_i...

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#205

Post by drivers99 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #64
cletus wrote: post #17

No, they don’t. This is a classic example of listening to what people say vs observing what they do. And it’s a good lesson in product development. Ask your users “do you want X?” And the answer is inevitably “yes”. Ask them “do you want A or B?” And you’ll start to get a better approximation of user behavior. Better yet is observing actual behavior. In this case Americans have chosen the suburbs in droves. Americans…

People do vote with their dollars. The walkable neighborhoods in my city tend to cost 2-3X more than houses in less walkable areas. There are actually huge swaths of affordable houses built on the outskirts of many towns, but people don’t want them because they’re not close to the walkable parts of the city.

That's called "drive until you qualify."

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#206

Post by aroundtown »

I wouldn't mind more walkable if it didn't come at the cost of being around many more people.

Every walkable city I've been to is either filthy, cramped, loud, over run, and/or very very expensive. I don't want to live so close to people to hear them, smell them, or be bothered by them or their pets.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#207

Post by SilasX »

jackson1442 wrote: post #5

I like my car and I like driving. That said, I don't like driving _everywhere_. When I moved to university, it was incredibly freeing to just be able to walk somewhere I wanted to go rather than getting in my car and driving miles to get anywhere. I grew up in a suburb in Texas so walking anywhere except _maybe_ a friend's house was entirely out of the question. I visited Portland recently and it was lovely to be abl…

I remember hearing a joke that Americans like vacationing in Paris (or Rome, London, etc) because it reproduces the walkable life they only ever had in college.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#208

Post by iammisc »

mrgordon wrote: post #148
iammisc wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just disagree. I live in the very environment you claim doesn't exist

Where is that? You may have a different idea of walkable than the other poster. As soon as you have tons of parking spaces, mandatory setbacks, etc. you’ve taken much of the room away from pedestrians forcing them to walk much longer distances (often in bad weather) to get to where they want to go. That’s why the two are at such odds.

I live in Portland city limits but not downtown. Where I live was built as a suburb but the city grew into it. Actually Portland has a lot of these downtowney areas and they're surrounded by blocks and blocks of single family homes and small apartments

But if you go farther out into newer developments, they just abandoned this lovely system and made awful cookie cutter burbs.

Before this I lived in San Rafael and larkspur in Marin county which also have nice downtowney areas surrounded by single family homes. Old Marin county had just this pattern of walkable enough neighborhoods with tiny downtowns. I don't see why this sort of thing isn't possible. When I lived there I walked everywhere

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#209

Post by bluejekyll »

nomel wrote: post #158
mrgordon wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lyft Line and Uber Pool were usually $4-5 around San Francisco before COVID and you can use electric bikes through the bike share for $15 for the entire month. Obviously it’s easier if you live near the walkable area, but it doesn’t need to be as expensive as you claim and SF is one of the more expensive cities.

> Lyft Line and Uber Pool were usually $4-5 Two way is $10. > you can use electric bikes through the bike share for $15 for the entire month That 20 minutes is back.

Driving a car around SF is generally more than 20 minutes. Most areas downtown can be reached in the same or less time by bike, and it also removes any issues with parking/waiting for a car.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#210

Post by noahtallen »

gullywhumper wrote: post #135

To make cities more walkable, changing driver behavior needs to be a significant focus. Minneapolis consistently ranks as one of the better cities for pedestrians, but even here the drivers here are really aggressive towards pedestrians to the point that some don't even care if you're pushing a stroller. Bike lanes, trails, and enhanced crosswalks are great, but they can't protect you from drivers that ignore traffic…

Road design has a huge part to play here. Places with very safe streets have very few lanes, lots of traffic calming, smarter signals, and design which makes drivers slow down and pay attention. The road in that picture is broad and open, so it’s no wonder cars feel like they’re the priority: the design promotes it.

I agree that cultural change is necessary too, but there are so many relatively cheap things we could do to improve streets for non-cars! And if we do, they’d end up being able to move more people anyways, because cars are incredibly space expensive.

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