Apple’s new abuse prevention system: an antritust/competition point of view • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple’s new abuse prevention system: an antritust/competition point of view

#191

Post by jachee » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:37 AM UTC

dannyw wrote: post #184

macintux wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See the “Federal CSAM Law” section here: https://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2020/01/earn-it-act-how-b... > Section 2258A of the law imposes duties on online service providers, such as Facebook and Tumblr and Dropbox and Gmail. The law mandates that providers must report CSAM when they discover it on their services, and then preserve what they’ve reported (because it’s evidence of a crime).

The law doesn't require them to actively go around scanning for it.

They’re scanning for it as it enters their system. It’s only scanned if it’s set to go to iCloud.

Re: Apple’s new abuse prevention system: an antritust/competition point of view

#192

Post by DSingularity » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:42 AM UTC

ctvo wrote: post #139

DSingularity wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think this?

I can't find a widely accepted statistic but these numbers should illustrate the point: - A 2016 study by the Center for Court Innovation found that between 8,900 and 10,500 children, ages 13 to 17, are commercially exploited each year in the United States. (Center for Court Innovation, 2016) https://www.courtinnovation.org/sites/default/files/document... - The annual number of persons prosecuted for commercial sexua…

Thanks for the statistics. To me, these numbers are significant.

Maybe Whole Foods or maybe some popular restaurants are better candidates for working on improving nutrition in public schools? Why don’t we let apple contribute where it thinks it can. Maybe with apple that number goes down from 10,000 to 2,000. Wouldn’t that be a celebrated outcome?

Re: Apple’s new abuse prevention system: an antritust/competition point of view

#193

Post by anonuser123456 » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:45 AM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #180

slg wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We don't even mention the giant logical leap from finding someone possessing CP to automatically considering them a child molester, yet someone posessing an action movie is not considered a murderer. This is a wild and in my opinion a wrongheaded analogy. Possessing CP is a crime by itself. It doesn't matter if the person possessing is actually a molester or not. It is just like the possession of drugs being illegal…

The worst thing about it is that CP possession is a strict liability crime in most jurisdictions. Meaning that prosecution doesn't have to prove intent - if they can find it on your machine, you're guilty regardless of how it got there.

In criminal law you must be aware of an item for it to be under your possession. If someone plants illegal content on your computer, and you are unaware, you aren't legally in possession.

Re: Apple’s new abuse prevention system: an antritust/competition point of view

#194

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:46 AM UTC

tenpies wrote: post #183

Can I just say that I'm fascinated that this is happening under Tim Apple - an openly gay man in his 60s? I mean this is someone who would know what being on the wrong side of law means - not only federally, but probably quite intimately since Alabama was not exactly known for its acceptance of homosexual people. Now just imagine if the US still had anti-homosexuality laws (like the majority of the world still does)…

[deleted]

Re: Apple’s new abuse prevention system: an antritust/competition point of view

#195

Post by jachee » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:47 AM UTC

Asmod4n wrote: post #129

cblconfederate wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this imply that apple was not checking the photos stored in their servers for CP? Then icloud must have been the best way to share it

It at least looks like apple is the last one to do this. google, flickr, facebook, twitter etc did this since forever.

Almost like Apple was the last holdout to not give up customers’ privacy, and eventually had to cave. So they came up with a sophisticated system to handle the scanning on-device, and only for data that’s already destined for their servers.

Re: Apple’s new abuse prevention system: an antritust/competition point of view

#196

Post by jacknews » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:51 AM UTC

Child abuse, or any abuse should be stamped out vigorously.

But this is the job of the police, using standard techniques to track down first, the people making and distributing this content, and then consumers of it.

It is not Apple's job to put a policeman in everyone's phone.

Re: Apple’s new abuse prevention system: an antritust/competition point of view

#197

Post by SV_BubbleTime » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:56 AM UTC

mr_toad wrote: post #169

asimpletune wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that’s in essence what the author is arguing, at least the outcomes are the same. The only difference is maybe none of the 3-letter agencies had to come out and explicitly say it, when Apple is perfectly competent at spotting a bone to toss. In other words, the author thinks with Apple’s back to a wall, they only needed to make the announcement of this feature for the government to see there are advantages to…

This could be aimed at pre-emptively de-fanging one argument against end-to-end encryption.

That’s the best case.

But even in the best case, exists then worst abuse cases. That’s the problem. This WILL be abused.

Re: Apple’s new abuse prevention system: an antritust/competition point of view

#198

Post by noduerme » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:59 AM UTC

jachee wrote: post #188

tenpies wrote: post #183

Can I just say that I'm fascinated that this is happening under Tim Apple - an openly gay man in his 60s? I mean this is someone who would know what being on the wrong side of law means - not only federally, but probably quite intimately since Alabama was not exactly known for its acceptance of homosexual people. Now just imagine if the US still had anti-homosexuality laws (like the majority of the world still does)…

> …your phone is constantly scanning your photos to check for signs of homosexual behaviour. Forgetfully take a selfie with your boyfriend, it gets flagged… Except that’s not what this is doing. For all intents and purposes, “scanning” is just hashing content before it’s uploaded and comparing that hash to a known database. So, unless your picture had been hashed and flagged before (And if you just took it how could…

The hash matching part of this is a red herring. The real issue is that if a hash matches, there's now a mechanism to upload the image in question from your phone, unencrypted, without your consent. What assurance is there that the hidden upload mechanism can't be used to upload other files on demand? If a mechanism is built into the OS that can exfiltrate files on demand, what's to say there even has to be a hash match? Or that iCloud has to be active? What's to stop any government from going to Apple and saying "we know you have this ability, give us all this user's files." Nothing.

The exfiltration mechanism is the problem. If this were saying a hash match could be used to obtain a search warrant, that would be bad, but it would be far less egregious a breach of security and privacy than Apple adding a backdoor to just grab anything it likes.

Re: Apple’s new abuse prevention system: an antritust/competition point of view

#199

Post by adib » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:59 AM UTC

Say that you're an official with the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). You have huge stacks of brochures of anti-CCP materials. You've got them scanned and hashed. Next you call Apple and say, "Please alert us if similar imageries appears in your customers' devices. My assistants will send you weekly updates of the required hashes." Apple would say, "Sure, we're just following your law..."

Hence when a Chinese photographs such brochure "in the wild" using an iPhone, someone from "the government" will knock the next day and "strongly enquire" about yesterday's photo. Likewise when a Chinese minor receives an iMessage containing such brochure.

This is just _one_ example case of "extension" of the CSAM database as seen fit by some regulatory body.

Re: Apple’s new abuse prevention system: an antritust/competition point of view

#200

Post by pcbro141 » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:59 AM UTC

ta56hf47yt wrote: post #186

tenpies wrote: post #183

Can I just say that I'm fascinated that this is happening under Tim Apple - an openly gay man in his 60s? I mean this is someone who would know what being on the wrong side of law means - not only federally, but probably quite intimately since Alabama was not exactly known for its acceptance of homosexual people. Now just imagine if the US still had anti-homosexuality laws (like the majority of the world still does)…

Alternatively, and just as likely, is that the Republicans do the same evil things that you say the Democrats would do. Misusing tech isn't just for the "other" side, my friend.

Yeah that was particularly weird comment for GP to make just 6 months after Republicans stormed the Capitol on the command of a Republican President to hang government officials and overturn an election.