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The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

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Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#131

Post by stetrain »

Klonoar wrote: post #120
coldtea wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would really like people to start answering this: what exactly do you think has changed? e.g, Apple has announced they'll be doing this check? What exactly do you think is the same as before? > The exact same outcome can happen regardless of whether it's done on or off device. iCloud has _always_ been a known vector for authorities to peek. That's neither here, nor there. It's another thing to peak selectively wi…

>What exactly do you think is the same as before? The same checking when you synced things to iCloud. As has been repeated over and over again, this check happens for iCloud Photos. It's not running arbitrarily. Your photos were compared before and they're being compared now... if you're using iCloud Photos.

The post office scans your mail through various machines in transit. We accept that when we put the mail in the mailbox.

What if the post office announced they were installing a man with a scanning machine in your home who would scan your letters before they left your house?

It's the same outcome. The same process. Just inside your house instead of out in the mail system. They're exactly the same, except somehow it's not.

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#132

Post by Blammar »

zionic wrote: post #78
baggy_trough wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. This is very sinister indeed. Horrible idea, Apple.

So what are we going to do about it? I have a large user base on iOS. Considering a blackout protest.

Write an iCloud photo frontend that uploads only encrypted images to iCloud and decrypts on your phone only?

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#133

Post by remram »

marcinzm wrote: post #27

Given all the zero day exploits on iOS I wonder if it's now going to be viable to hack someone's phone and upload child porn to their account. Apple with happily flag the photos and then, likely, get those people arrested. Now they have to, in practice, prove they were hacked which might be impossible. Will either ruin their reputation or put them in jail for a long time. Given past witch hunts it could be decades be…

The "hack" might be very simple, since I'm sure it's possible to craft images that look like harmless memes but trigger the detection for CP.

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#134

Post by Klonoar »

coldtea wrote: post #128
Klonoar wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What exactly do you think is the same as before? The same checking when you synced things to iCloud. As has been repeated over and over again, this check happens for iCloud Photos. It's not running arbitrarily. Your photos were compared before and they're being compared now... if you're using iCloud Photos.

> The same checking when you synced things to iCloud. As has been repeated over and over again, this check happens for iCloud Photos. It's not running arbitrarily. Who said it's running "arbitrarily"? Who said it's not about iCloud Photos? > Your photos were compared before and they're being compared now... if you're using iCloud Photos. They weren't always compared, they started being compared a few years ago, and t…

>Both are bad, and not the responsibility of a company selling phones

Apple is not just a hardware company and there is no obligation for them to host offending contents on their servers - just as Dropbox, Google, and so on would maintain with theirs.

>As for your suggestions to just "stop using iCloud Photos", how about we get to enjoy the features we bought our devices for, without stuff we didn't ask for and don't want?

It's odd to say that a business shouldn't be allowed to police what's on their platform, given we're on a forum explicitly enabling entrepreneurs.

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#135

Post by giantrobot »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #50
stickfigure wrote: post #10

I've also implemented perceptual hashing algorithms for use in the real world. Article is correct, there really is no way to eliminate false positives while still catching minor changes (say, resizing, cropping, or watermarking). I'm sure I'm not the only person with naked pictures of my wife. Do you really want a false positive to result in your intimate moments getting shared around some outsourced boiler room for…

Why would other people have a naked picture of your wife?

She's a comely lass. I can't recommend her pictures enough.

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#136

Post by procinct »

brian_herman wrote: post #86
brian_herman wrote: post #83

Fortunately I have a cisco router and enough knowledge to block the 17.0.0.0/8 ip address range. This combined with an openvpn vpn will block all apple services from my devices. So basically my internet will look like this: Internet CISCO ASUS ROUTER with openvpn Network The cisco router will block the 17.0.0.0/8 ip address range and I will use spotify on all my computers.

Disregard comment I don't want to edit it because I am lazy. You can do all of this inside the asus router underneath the routes page just put this inside the asus router: Ip address 17.0.0.0 Subnet 255.0.0.0 Destination 127.0.0.1

You don't plan to ever use 4G/5G again?

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#137

Post by Klonoar »

stetrain wrote: post #131
Klonoar wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What exactly do you think is the same as before? The same checking when you synced things to iCloud. As has been repeated over and over again, this check happens for iCloud Photos. It's not running arbitrarily. Your photos were compared before and they're being compared now... if you're using iCloud Photos.

The post office scans your mail through various machines in transit. We accept that when we put the mail in the mailbox. What if the post office announced they were installing a man with a scanning machine in your home who would scan your letters before they left your house? It's the same outcome. The same process. Just inside your house instead of out in the mail system. They're exactly the same, except somehow it's…

This example changes with regards to emotional weight if you remove "a man" and leave it at just "a scanning machine". There is no human scanning your photos on an iPhone, so let's compares apples to apples here.

If that scanning machine didn't reveal the contents of my mail, and then ensured that it wasn't able to be given out in-transit? Yeah, I'd potentially be fine with it - but I'll leave this answer as a hypothetical since it's all theory anyway.

The point here is that you're choosing to use the mail system and you're thus choosing to play by those rules. Given that these checks happen for iCloud you're effectively making the same agreement.

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#138

Post by dylan604 »

mrtksn wrote: post #72

The technical challenges aside, I’m very disturbed that my device will be reporting me to the authorities. That’s very different from authorities taking a sneak peek into my stuff. That’s like the theological concept of always being watched. It starts with child pornography but the technology is indifferent towards it, it can be anything. It’s always about the children because we all want to save the children. Soon t…

>but I’m not going to carry a snitch in my pocket.

I wonder how this will hold up against 5th ammendment (in the US) covering self-incrimination?

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#139

Post by dylan604 »

marcinzm wrote: post #27

Given all the zero day exploits on iOS I wonder if it's now going to be viable to hack someone's phone and upload child porn to their account. Apple with happily flag the photos and then, likely, get those people arrested. Now they have to, in practice, prove they were hacked which might be impossible. Will either ruin their reputation or put them in jail for a long time. Given past witch hunts it could be decades be…

>Given past witch hunts it could be decades before people get exonerated.

Given how pedophiles are treated in prison, that might be longer than your expected lifespan if you are sent to prison because of this. Of course I'm taking it to the dark place, but you kinda gotta, you know?

Re: The Problem with Perceptual Hashes

#140

Post by brian_herman »

procinct wrote: post #136
brian_herman wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disregard comment I don't want to edit it because I am lazy. You can do all of this inside the asus router underneath the routes page just put this inside the asus router: Ip address 17.0.0.0 Subnet 255.0.0.0 Destination 127.0.0.1

You don't plan to ever use 4G/5G again?

I have openvpn so the block will remain in effect. I don't plan to use apple services ever again but the hard ware is pretty good.
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