Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

appleprivacyletter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 713 posts

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#31

Post by ElFitz »

toxik wrote: post #22
yunohn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is this absurd counter? Who’s talking about surrealistic drawings? We’re talking about actual material in real life, being shared by users and abusers. To be clear, I’m not supporting surveillance, just stating facts.

You should maybe read about the work [0], or just read the rest of what I said. Surrealism has nothing to do with the argument I made, so why do you bring it up? CSAM databases can by necessity not contain novel abuses, because they are novel. In fact, filtering by CSAM databases even indirectly /encourage/ novel abuses because these would not be caught by said filter. Catching CP hoarders does little to help the chi…

> Catching CP hoarders does little to help the children being exploited in the first place

If there is no market for it, there might be less incentive to produce any more of it.

Not that I believe we should all be continuously spied by people who merely pinky sweared to do it right and not abuse it.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#33

Post by swiley »

donkeyd wrote: post #27
swiley wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference a mile wide between moderating a service and moderating people's personal computers. Maybe the same thing that makes this hard to understand about iOS will be what finally kills these absolutely wretched mobile OSes.

> moderating people's personal computers This is done client side because your data is encrypted in their cloud. It won't be done if you disable cloud sync. If you just keep your cp out of the cloud, you're fine.

TBH it doesn't matter at all why they're doing it, they've crossed a line here.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#34

Post by donkeyd »

h0mie wrote: post #13
donkeyd wrote: post #4

I recently listened to a Darknet Diaries episode on messaging app Kik. This app is apparently being used by many people to trade child pornography. In this episode, there was some criticism expressed on how Kik doesn't scan all the images on their platform for child pornography. I would really like to hear from people who sign this open letter, how they think about this. Should the internet be a free for all place wi…

Should all personal computers be scanned all the time by windows/apple/... in case it contains cp?

Are you unable to answer any of the questions I asked? I'm seriously interested in hearing, from people who think Apple is in the wrong, where the border of acceptability is.

Would you prefer iOS submitted the photo's to their cloud unencrypted and Apple scanned them there? Because that's what the others are doing.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#35

Post by tobyhinloopen »

toxik wrote: post #3

Please talk to non-tech people around you about this. This overreach simply cannot stand, and from a company that sees success from touting itself as a privacy-centric alternative? These really are some dark times. I imagine that if the world had Stasi fresher in its mind, this would never have happened.

Talking about this with non-tech people might make the distrust in anything they don’t understand worse. Think vaccines.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#36

Post by avnigo »

sebzim4500 wrote: post #18
donkeyd wrote: post #4

I recently listened to a Darknet Diaries episode on messaging app Kik. This app is apparently being used by many people to trade child pornography. In this episode, there was some criticism expressed on how Kik doesn't scan all the images on their platform for child pornography. I would really like to hear from people who sign this open letter, how they think about this. Should the internet be a free for all place wi…

Fundamentally there is a difference between scanning files on your servers and scanning files stored on someone else's device, without their consent.

Not that I wholly agree with Apple's move due to other implications, but it has to be said that only photos that you have chosen to upload to iCloud will be scanned.

So, in a sense, you do consent to having those photos scanned by using iCloud. Maybe it's time for Apple to drop the marketing charade on privacy with iCloud, since iCloud backups aren't even encrypted anyway.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#37

Post by ho_schi »

I've someone has gone so far like Apple already did, I doubt that a open letter will change their thinking. Maybe they step a little back and bring the next similar thing which looks less invasive some time later?

Thinks like this must to be stopped! Customers shall not buy anything from companies which are hostile. And laws against these usage need passed. As far as it looks, the laws in Europe are in place and prevent this currently. But just currently, we've seen how companies like Apple push the boundaries. We as humans behave totally irrational, we complain about inhumane working conditions at Amazon and then we order the next item. We complain about a golden prison from Apple and buy the next iPhone. We should change?

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#38

Post by quenix »

toxik wrote: post #28
quenix wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A picture of child abuse is child abuse in that the abuse of a child was necessary to take the picture in the first place. If the picture had no grounds to spread, it would likely not have been made—no incentive. As such, the fact that the picture is able to spread indirectly incentivises further physical abuse to children.

That does simply not follow from logic. Child abuse existed before cameras. Edit: People are unhappy with this refutation, so a second one then. The claim, specifically, is that CP is CA because CP requires CA to happen. So a photo of theft is theft. A recording of genocide is genocide. Clearly absurd. Never mind the context that the pornography in my question is drawn, thus no actual child was hurt. Edit 2: The poin…

Sure, some child abuse isn't perpetrated for the purpose of being filmed and sold/distributed. But a large percentage is.

That large percentage is disincentivized when technology that makes it more difficult to spread and/or makes it easier for LE to apprehend owners is implemented.

I never said that there would no longer be any child abuse with these steps, just less of it.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#39

Post by digitalsushi »

donkeyd wrote: post #4

I recently listened to a Darknet Diaries episode on messaging app Kik. This app is apparently being used by many people to trade child pornography. In this episode, there was some criticism expressed on how Kik doesn't scan all the images on their platform for child pornography. I would really like to hear from people who sign this open letter, how they think about this. Should the internet be a free for all place wi…

The big reason I don't want someone else scanning my phone (and a year later, my laptop) is that last I checked, software is not perfect, and I don't need the FBI getting called on me cause my browser cache smelled funny to some Apple PhD's machine-learning decision.

It's the same reason I don't want police having any opportunistic information about me - both of these have an agenda, and so innocent people get pulled into scenarios they shouldn't be when that information becomes the unlucky best-fit of the day.

That Apple has even suggested this is disturbing because I have to fully expect this is their vision for every device I am using.

And then I expect from there, it's a race to the bottom until we treat our laptops like they are all live microphones.

Re: An Open Letter Against Apple's Privacy-Invasive Content Scanning Technology

#40

Post by tda »

swiley wrote: post #10
donkeyd wrote: post #4

I recently listened to a Darknet Diaries episode on messaging app Kik. This app is apparently being used by many people to trade child pornography. In this episode, there was some criticism expressed on how Kik doesn't scan all the images on their platform for child pornography. I would really like to hear from people who sign this open letter, how they think about this. Should the internet be a free for all place wi…

There's a difference a mile wide between moderating a service and moderating people's personal computers. Maybe the same thing that makes this hard to understand about iOS will be what finally kills these absolutely wretched mobile OSes.

except that the boundary between device and service is steadily eroding. A screen is a device and netflix is a service, but a smart tv that won't function without an internrt connection? A nokia was a device you owned, but any Apple device is more like a service than a device really, as you don't control what OS can run on it, which unsigned software you run etc. So if you are ok with moderation on services and your device turns into a service... Perhaps we need laws to fully separate hardware and software but actually the integration between hardware and software is becoming stronger and stronger every year
Post reply on HN