Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship • Hacker News Board

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#551

Post by javert » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

1024core wrote: post #434

ricksunny wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American expat here - agreed with the other expats - it’s the filing that really, really sucks. Like really. Breaking the difficulty down in terms of priority. 1 - just trying to work through what all might possibly be owed and not owed to US as well as the country(ies) one operates in. 2 - Identifying through which paperwork to declare it, while also ensuring income / business reporting is copacetic with the tax reg…

Why doesn't the US reduce it to a flat tax? Say, $1000/year to send you your election ballot, and evacuate you in case something goes horribly wrong.

The US government doesn't work like that. There isn't some logical person making logical decisions.

For this change to occur, many senators and representatives would have to be directly and personally incentivized to make the change.

They aren't.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#552

Post by bmn__ » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #506

jandrewrogers wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is only applies to so-called earned income , you still owe taxes on all of your other income. And many people earn considerably more than $108k. Furthermore, even under tax treaties, it is not uncommon for some part of your income to be double taxed due to differences in recognition and classification of income and foreign taxes paid. Americans often have to pay more taxes than if they only had to pay taxes in e…

Many people earn a lot more than that. I agree. Where I disagree is that I don't see what's unjust about asking them to pay tax for a system they benefit from.

Faulty assumption; Americans who live abroad do not benefit from the US system: social security/disability/retirement, health programs, military, public infrastructure etc. pp. is provided by the country where they live.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#553

Post by rejectedandsad » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

jarl-ragnar wrote: post #548

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. This is exactly why these people are renouncing US citizenship: They’re living overseas as citizens of another country and, like anyone rich or poor, don’t want to be paying taxes to a country they aren’t living in.…

There’s an irony in there somewhere given the original motivation for the “Boston Tea Party”. No taxation without representation.

Americans can vote overseas though

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#554

Post by novok » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

Thousands in a country of hundreds of millions. This is a drop in a drop of a bucket. Wake me up when it breaches %0.01 of the population.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#555

Post by rejectedandsad » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 7:01 PM UTC

berinateni wrote: post #264

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

Eric Schmidt renounced his US citizenship even though he owns 2 California homes and one in Massachusetts.

He did not renounce his citizenship, where are you getting this information?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#556

Post by javert » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 7:03 PM UTC

circular_logic wrote: post #63

Interesting facts about renouncing American citizenship: - There is renunciation fee that has to be paid and currently stands at $2,350 (the highest in the world).[1] - A final tax return will sill need to be filed. [1] - An Expatriation tax is payable if [..] Your net worth is $2 million or more on the date of your expatriation. you will be treated as having disposed of your assets the day before your expatriation a…

"- The highest capital gains tax bracket in the USA is 20% [2]"

Not really, because they can arbitrarily change it and backdate the change at any time, and they are currently planning to raise it to 43% and backdate the change.

In truth, the US does not have a fixed capital gains rate.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#557

Post by qwertox » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 7:04 PM UTC

ninja3925 wrote: post #23

amcoastal wrote: post #3

Its really a great system we have here --- get insanely wealthy off the backs of Americans who pay tons more for basic services and then when it's time to pay back run off and keep your change. No wonder America is doing so well.

“Off the back” sounds like the wealthy took advantage of folks when, in fact, they entered voluntary contracts in a win-win scenario. Creating a company is not exploitative but rather collaborative and mutually beneficial (with workers).

That is a very naïve way to look at it. It is capitalism, and capitalism is brutal. So even if your view applies to some cases, it certainly does not to all.

Take Jeff Bezos' commentary after his ride into space for example:

> I want to thank every Amazon employee and every Amazon customer because you guys paid for all this. So, to every Amazon customer out there and every Amazon employee thank you from the bottom of my heart.

https://twitter.com/EoinHiggins_/status/1417515577275453440

I get it that we, the consumers paid for this trip. But his employees? What do they have to do with this? Isn't it supposed to be a "collaborative and mutually beneficial" relationship, which would imply that Bezos is not making money from his employees, but exclusively through them, and paying them what they deserve? Yet he claims that they paid for it, which implies that he is not paying them what they deserve, since it is the customer who is supposed to pay his salary, not the exploitation of his employees.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#558

Post by guyzero » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

api wrote: post #290

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

AFAIK if you live in a country like Canada with higher taxes you still have to file to maintain citizenship but you end up paying zero since you can deduct what you paid in your home country. This would apply to people relocating to countries with a lower tax base. In that case you have to renounce.

Deductions vary greatly between jurisdictions. Capital gains taxes vary greatly, tax-sheltered savings accounts may not be recognized, certain rollovers programs probably only exist in one of the jurisdictions, etc. None of these people renouncing their citizenship just make straight employment income.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#559

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

jandrese wrote: post #403

circular_logic wrote: post #63

Interesting facts about renouncing American citizenship: - There is renunciation fee that has to be paid and currently stands at $2,350 (the highest in the world).[1] - A final tax return will sill need to be filed. [1] - An Expatriation tax is payable if [..] Your net worth is $2 million or more on the date of your expatriation. you will be treated as having disposed of your assets the day before your expatriation a…

It's even more expensive than that since they don't refund you the money you paid into Social Security when you renounce.

Why would they refund past taxes you'd paid?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#560

Post by andruby » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 7:07 PM UTC

jontas wrote: post #265

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. This is exactly why these people are renouncing US citizenship: They’re living overseas as citizens of another country and, like anyone rich or poor, don’t want to be paying taxes to a country they aren’t living in.…

The article is not drawing an arbitrary line: > The IRS publishes a quarterly list of the names of people who have renounced their citizenship or given up their green cards, but it only includes people with global assets over $2 million It may be an arbitrary line, but if so, it's the IRS drawing it.

Why does the IRS publish the list of people renouncing citizenship? And why does it filter for people with global assets over $2M? I feel like I am missing something for this to make sense.