Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship • Hacker News Board

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#541

Post by ciguy » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

AdamN wrote: post #448

aerostable_slug wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they don't have a MEU sitting off conflict zones waiting to leap into action. The United States will literally send the Marines to save a citizen. A person from, say, Ecuador probably doesn't enjoy the same amount of risk coverage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_expeditionary_unit

I remember being in Kenya before the election that followed post-election violence previously (scores dead). Ambassador said point blank, "You need to take care of yourselves. We only have a handful of marines and they'll be spending their time protecting or destroying classified documents."

Exactly. This myth that the USA bails its citizens out of sketchy situations needs to die.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#542

Post by noodlesUK » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:42 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #459

fmajid wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some are "accidental Americans" like UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson, born in the US, who discovered as a US citizen he had to pay capital gains taxes when he sold his London apartment. Australia requires its parliamentarians to have only Australian citizenship and some discovered for the same reason they were not eligible. Furthermore, the burden of FATCA is sufficiently onerous that many banks etc. just refuse to d…

Is it possible to operate using a business account in other countries? It's pretty cheap and easy to do in the USA.

Yeah, it is in theory, but even small businesses incorporated abroad with US persons involved in them put huge reporting burdens on the US person. Form 5471 and friends make this stuff look straightforward. Most of the time I find my frustration isn’t about how much money I am paying in taxes, but just how much dull and confusing paperwork I have to understand. Even trained professionals who spend their whole lives doing this get confused by US tax compliance for people who have international lives. The US needs to realise how important the a positive reputation in its expat community would be for its soft power.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#543

Post by disabled » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:44 PM UTC

aarchi wrote: post #454

fmajid wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some are "accidental Americans" like UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson, born in the US, who discovered as a US citizen he had to pay capital gains taxes when he sold his London apartment. Australia requires its parliamentarians to have only Australian citizenship and some discovered for the same reason they were not eligible. Furthermore, the burden of FATCA is sufficiently onerous that many banks etc. just refuse to d…

Well Germany also requires that you surrender other citizenships when you get a German citizenship, unless you are a German dual citizen through ancestry.

Or your other citizenships are solely from the European Union. (You can be a dual/tri/quad EU|German citizen)

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#544

Post by jjcm » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

The worst part for me is not the taxes themselves, but it's that I feel like I have no representation while overseas. When I was living in Australia, my representatives were for the state of Oregon. Not once did one of my assigned representatives nor senators propose legislation meant to help expats overseas, they understandably represented their voter base in Oregon.

It essentially creates a system of taxation without representation; ironically something the country has a deep history fighting against. The number of US expats is enormous, and if they were a state of their own they'd be the 11th most populated state (just ahead of New Jersey). If we're going to tax expats overseas, at the very least they should be provided with senators that are dedicated to fighting for their cause.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#545

Post by oblio » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:46 PM UTC

goodpoint wrote: post #450

oblio wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The median US gross salary for US software developers is $108k. I imagine that's $60k net or less. The median Romanian net salary for software developers is RON 7000 per month. That's about €1400 or $1600 per month, so $19.2K, net. 3x. You were saying?

3x != 2x, and I suspect 3x is still too low; also comparing median salaries is not enough.

I said:

> I'd imagine that the average ratio would be closer to 2-3x

To which you replied:

> 10% is a gross exaggeration but "the average ratio would be closer to 2-3x" sounds equally exaggerated in the other direction.

My original example pointed to the top of the range and then I used the median, which is the statistically most relevant indicator for comparing salaries.

> 3x != 2x, and I suspect 3x is still too low; also comparing median salaries is not enough.

At this point, you're arguing in bad faith.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#546

Post by FredPret » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #348

FredPret wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citizens are not assets of the state

It’s a reciprocal relationship with rights and obligations on both sides not ownership. For example the FBI doesn’t invoice victims or their families when it gets involved in kidnapping cases. Capital gains are deferred without interest until an asset it sold, that doesn’t mean there wasn’t an obligation for those years.

Reciprocal relationship = either party can end it under certain circumstances. If the taxpayer wants to move, the state has no moral right to force them to stay

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#547

Post by SonicScrub » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:51 PM UTC

paxys wrote: post #516

SonicScrub wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that you are ethically in the right, but it is still legally "tax evasion", and therefore probably not the best advice to be given to others. I say this as someone who has personal experience with the "accidental American" status. Depending on where you are, the IRS may discover your "American" status, and the penalties could be worse. For example, Canadian banks share information with the IRS under FATCA. ht…

If North Korea passes a law tomorrow saying that every person on the planet owes it $1000 in taxes, if you ignore it are you committing a crime?

Legally? You'd be breaking the law in North Korea, so technically yes, but that's not really the point here. Does North Korea have the ability to realistically threaten my assets, livelihood or freedoms? If so, then the proper legal advice here would be to pay it. We are not discussing ethics here, we're discussing whether or not following the "just ignore it" advice is a good idea or not.

In the case of the US, they have the capacity to make legitimate threats against me regardless of where I live, with zero defense provided by my sovereign nation. So what's the right move?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#548

Post by jarl-ragnar » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:52 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #94

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

> It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. This is exactly why these people are renouncing US citizenship: They’re living overseas as citizens of another country and, like anyone rich or poor, don’t want to be paying taxes to a country they aren’t living in.…

There’s an irony in there somewhere given the original motivation for the “Boston Tea Party”.

No taxation without representation.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#549

Post by umeshunni » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

paulddraper wrote: post #286

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

US states do the same thing. States with income tax will tax you whether you work in the state, or you are resident in the state.

Or in the case of California, up to 4 years after you leave the state.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#550

Post by skeeter2020 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:54 PM UTC

aarchi wrote: post #454

fmajid wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some are "accidental Americans" like UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson, born in the US, who discovered as a US citizen he had to pay capital gains taxes when he sold his London apartment. Australia requires its parliamentarians to have only Australian citizenship and some discovered for the same reason they were not eligible. Furthermore, the burden of FATCA is sufficiently onerous that many banks etc. just refuse to d…

Well Germany also requires that you surrender other citizenships when you get a German citizenship, unless you are a German dual citizen through ancestry.

Doesn't the Netherlands do this as well? As a Canadian I think not allowing dual citizenship might solve a lot of issues with both the very rich and the very poor.