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Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

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Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#521

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

It's also problematic in other way, my friends moved to US for a job for few years and had kids there. US gives you citizenship by place of birth so the kids have US citizenship. Now that they are back they are in a bit of a pickle not knowing what to do, the kids might be screwed and own money to the US for nothing when they grow up but renouncing it now for them also doesn't make sense (if even possible) because th…

[deleted]

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#522

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

Your representation is a bit exaggerated. The law simplistically simplifies to: if your income is above $X, then if your foreign tax payment $Y is less than the theoretical amount of tax you would have paid doing the same work under American Tax laws $Z, then please remit the difference ($Z-$Y) to the American government. I've personally filled out the forms several times, for multiple periods (full and partial). How…

Noob question -- what do you mean by harmonization trends in the EU? I couldn't quite understand from a google search or maybe even what exactly to search for.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#523
post #485
post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not an issue in American. Thing is we are talking about renouncing citizenship so the comparison is to other countries. Looking deeply at the social counteracts of other countries is really interesting because of how many different things we take for granted aren’t universal. Free speech in the US is more limited than I would like, but it gets much worse even in countries that look civilized in other ways.

FBI has no jurisdiction outside the US, so you don’t gain anything this way. Free speech in US is poorer than in most Western countries, as it fails to protect you from anything other than most government institutions. For example in US it’s fine for your employer to fire you because they don’t like what you say in your private time. Other countries provide better protection. My question is still unanswered: why woul…

> as it fails to protect you from anything other than most government institutions.

Depends on the state. The US isn't as simple as you're making it out to be.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many Americans actually end up with real tax liability from a foreign country? Probably need to answer that before we determine whether it's "worth it" because my understanding is most people don't.

At least from those expats posting here, the issue isn’t the actual real tax liability, but the burden of having to show the IRS every year that you don’t think you have a tax liability.

And the fact that most UK finace institutions wont deal with you makes opening ISA's etc v difficult

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least from those expats posting here, the issue isn’t the actual real tax liability, but the burden of having to show the IRS every year that you don’t think you have a tax liability.

That’s a hassle but it seems hyperbolic to call it absurdly cruel and the other things people here are saying.

If you are not allowed to open financial accounts for investments in the country you are living in because they do not want to have information sent to the IRS, you'll think differently.

I know at least one country that will not let you even open a bank account if you have a green card or US citizenship. Actually, even if you're a foreigner living in the US (student, H-1, etc), that country will not let you open a bank account - even if you are a citizen of that country. The rule is simple: If you have ties to the US that could require you reporting your bank account to the IRS, then you cannot open a bank account.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you go to work for a different company that has the CEO you want. Vote with your feet.

But wait, I thought building the company was collaborative? If I collaborated in building the company I work for, why would I want to leave it just to work for a different CEO? If all the workers agree that we need a different CEO, why can't we vote for it? After all, it's supposed to be a collaboration ....

It is collaborative.

Collaboration doesn't mean forcing others to work with you.

Instead, collaborative is about voluntary choice.

If you want to work somewhere else, under different rules, that would be your choice. Forcing others to do what you want isn't collaboration.

> why can't we vote for it

Co-ops exist. If that is what you prefer then go work for a co-op.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#527
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Americans seem to believe that, but it doesn't actually seem to be the case. For instance, when Yemen was falling apart, countries like China, India, Pakistan, Russia, and Indonesia all worked hard to evacuate their citizens, many using their military to do so[1]. The U.S. response was to tell American citizens they were on their own[2]. The U.S. embassy even recommended that Americans seek assistance from India…

> I'd say America is worse than other countries at getting citizens out of bad situations I last saw data through the UNDP about ten years ago. It's very possible that the situation has degraded. And no country has 100% coverage, far from it. At the time, however, the U.S. government was exceedingly good at exfiltrating citizens from disaster zones. Granted, it has had more experience doing this because, well, empire…

If you come across the data please share it, it would be worthwhile seeing what exactly they're talking about and if the data matches your memory of it. I didn't come across it in my (very limited) search, but I did find this analysis that suggests U.S. citizens fare worse than citizens of many other countries[1]:

> According to a database compiled by New America from public sources, since 2001, American hostages taken captive by terrorist, militant, and pirate groups have been more than twice as likely to remain in captivity, die in captivity, or be murdered by their captors as the average Western hostage. Forty-three percent of American hostages died, remain in captivity, or remain unaccounted for, compared to an average of 19 percent for all Westerners.

[1] https://www.newamerica.org/international-security/policy-pap...

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for reading! The stay versus go debate in HK is always very interesting and one that has been going on for decades and will no doubt continue for many people.

I think it reached a point of no return. HK is still a very special place, but I see a lot of expats leaving for Singapore and Hkers leaving for overseas(BNO visa). Singapore is more stable, but has even less freedoms than HK though.

Depending on how bad it turns out I could see a wave of HK emigration to the UK.

Similar how a lot of Asians living in Africa (Uganda Kenya etc.) did in the 1970's, Without the ethnic cleansing aspect.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#529
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> surrendering US citizenship is a logical choice Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. In most Western countries, being a resident is associated with healthcare and pension, so having one residency is logical.

> Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. U.S. citizenship carries extraterritorial benefits. For example, we're pretty good at getting our people out of thorny situations, even at great national expense. If someone isn't paying to support that, it makes sense to force a revocation decision.

That's nothing unique american and quite standard for western democracies. Way more important than military force is legal support and diplomatic weight, to get you extradited, if you end up in your host countries legal system for whatever reason, which is the way more likely thing to happen.

It's not unheard of, that dual citizens renounce their more or less vaguely authoritarian citizenship when it's too dangerous to live or visit there with a dual one. Since then the other state has no obligation to intervene and is even blocked from reigning into the affairs of another nation.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What benefits does one have when living in a foreign country as a US citizen? There is no legal representation. There is no access to US government services. What exactly would an overseas US citizen be paying for?

All of the benefits that taxes provide. I don't even know them all offhand, let alone have enough space to enumerate them fully. Some of the major benefits that come to mind: Protect by a world superpower military and diplomacy, welfare and social security, a stable place to return to in the case of trouble, a country that ensures development of vaccines and provides them for it's population in the case of pandemics.…

>>Protect by a world superpower military and diplomacy,

That's the argument the British crown once made for taxation without representation. It wasn't very well-received.

A country is obligated to protect its own borders and demand commensurate payment. I don't see a reason to pay for American military expansionism if I'm kept safe enough by my country of residence. Anything beyond that is wasted tax dollars or adventurism with the US government's own motives in mind. I shouldn't have to subsidize either one.

>>welfare and social security,

EBT, food stamps, COBRA, etc. aren't recognized outside of the United States. Social security is not a benefit. It's a Ponzi-scheme with a gun to your head taking money that was already earned and delaying it until you have strong chance of dying from a heart attack.

>>a stable place to return to in the case of trouble,

That's an argument that can be made for most overseas citizen of many countries. Yet these other countries have not fallen to shambles on the basis of lacking global taxation. There's no reason for me to pay for a "stability" I'm not in a longitude and latitude to benefit from.

On the contrary, there is a case to be made that United States is quite unstable itself as it has failed to contain a disease within its own borders and has also chosen to violate property rights under its unconstitutional eviction moratorium without providing just compensation. Even pre-COVID, some areas like Chicago and Los Angeles have had crime ratings high enough to compete with entire countries.

>>a country that ensures development of vaccines and provides them for it's population in the case of pandemics.

So can India, China, Britain, France, Italy, Germany, Australia, etc. Why should I pay the United States if I received my vaccine from these countries' labs and and medical resources instead?

>>medicare (or similar) for all as well as some other social benefits that make sense to enable more risk free pursuit of happiness and simplify employment.

An American citizen can't use medicare in a foreign country. Just like how a British citizen can't use NHS services in the United States. The pursuit of happiness is a negative right, not a subsidized one.

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