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Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

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Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#361

Post by ekster »

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

I am renouncing for these exact reasons. I am lucky enough not to be rich enough for the exit tax, though.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#362

Post by rs999gti »

MangoCoffee wrote: post #269
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. U.S. citizenship carries extraterritorial benefits. For example, we're pretty good at getting our people out of thorny situations, even at great national expense. If someone isn't paying to support that, it makes sense to force a revocation decision.

>we're pretty good at getting our people out of thorny situations, even at great national expense. If someone isn't paying to support that, it makes sense to force a revocation decision. how many American get into that kind of shit storm? it seem like this benefit isn't worth the taxes that you pay

The US may or may not have paid $2M to get Warmbier our of North Korea

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/north-kore...

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#363

Post by sparrish »

i_d_rather_read wrote: post #333
ninja3925 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Off the back” sounds like the wealthy took advantage of folks when, in fact, they entered voluntary contracts in a win-win scenario. Creating a company is not exploitative but rather collaborative and mutually beneficial (with workers).

> Creating a company is not exploitative but rather collaborative and mutually beneficial (with workers). If it's collaborative can we vote a new CEO?

Yes, you go to work for a different company that has the CEO you want. Vote with your feet.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#364

Post by bingohbangoh »

ihattendorf wrote: post #354
hnthrwy1111 wrote: post #185

I'm an "accidental American" who has navigated this issue and it's incredibly easy. Just don't file. Every professional that writes blogs about this has a professional duty to give legal advice but the practical advice is just don't file. Look into what exactly triggers data to be sent to the IRS under your tax treaty and the policies of your financial institutions. Being "accidental" is the key here. If you tell you…

And then you slip up, the IRS finds out, and on a connecting flight on your way to another country you get arrested for tax evasion.

It's a misdemeanor to not file, its a felony to lie when you do file.

Ergo, they can't call Interpol to get you for not filing.

(correct me if you're a tax accountant, but I'm 99.999% positive on that first statement and 80% confident on the second)

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#365

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

cpursley wrote: post #37
altcognito wrote: post #2

They’ve been allowed for decades to avoid paying for the infrastructure and management of the country while simultaneously holding most of the influence. “Renouncing citizenship” means they’ll give up none of the influence, lose the taxes, live how and wherever they want. The best thing to do is forbid them re-entry into the country nor to hold controlling interest in any company in the US. Faced with actual conseque…

> They’ve been allowed for decades to avoid paying for the infrastructure and management of the country while simultaneously holding most of the influence. Maybe you didn't know this but Americans living overseas still have to file and pay US taxes, often getting double-taxed buy two different countries - and often by a higher tax country than the US. In fact, the US is one of only two countries in the world with thi…

> often getting double-taxed buy two different countries - and often by a higher tax country than the US.

If there's a tax treaty between the two countries, they're not going to be double taxed. They will simply pay tax at the higher-country-rate, and owe nothing to the other.

If there's no tax treaty ... I'm not familiar with how that works. The US has tax treaties with many countries around the world, especially the OECD nations.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#366

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

bagacrap wrote: post #238
cpursley wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They’ve been allowed for decades to avoid paying for the infrastructure and management of the country while simultaneously holding most of the influence. Maybe you didn't know this but Americans living overseas still have to file and pay US taxes, often getting double-taxed buy two different countries - and often by a higher tax country than the US. In fact, the US is one of only two countries in the world with thi…

I think gp was referring to how capital gains aren't taxed until realized. Having billions in unrealized gains gives you influence, even though you didn't yet pay tax on it. However, when you relinquish your citizenship you pay an exit tax which is more or less equivalent to what you'd pay if you sold all your assets and paid gains taxes, so I'm not sure how this move really helps billionaires, except that they don't…

> I'm not sure how this move really helps billionaires

I am sure they never, ever, ever lie about their assets.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#368

Post by penguin_booze »

> For most countries, if you are a citizen but don’t reside there, you aren’t taxed in that country.

Is it true? To my knowledge, if one's home and the resident country have double taxation avoidance agreement, the citizen end up paying the maximum of the tax rate amongst the two.

Is it the case that the US doesn't have DTAA at all, or do US citizens always get taxed twice?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#369

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

lmilcin wrote: post #86
altcognito wrote: post #2

They’ve been allowed for decades to avoid paying for the infrastructure and management of the country while simultaneously holding most of the influence. “Renouncing citizenship” means they’ll give up none of the influence, lose the taxes, live how and wherever they want. The best thing to do is forbid them re-entry into the country nor to hold controlling interest in any company in the US. Faced with actual conseque…

A lot of assumptions. Maybe people no longer want to live in US and it is wealthy that have it easier to actually go through with this? Or maybe they actually live somewhere else and don't like paying their taxes TWICE. Almost every country in the world (except US) requires taxes based on residency, not citizenship. For example, being Pole, if I spend more than 180 days in Sweden, I now owe taxes in Sweden but no lon…

> For example, being Pole, if I spend more than 180 days in Sweden, I now owe taxes in Sweden but no longer owe them in Poland. That is because Poland recognizes that, while I am Polish citizen, I actually was Swedish resident during that tax year. And have an agreement with Sweden so that it is clear where I have to pay my taxes.

The US has similar arrangements with many countries, and you are not doubly-taxed. You simply pay taxes at the highest rate of the two (US and ).

Likewise, if you move to the US from a higher-tax country, and the US has a tax treaty with that country, in your first year in the US (assuming you move mid-year), you will owe taxes to both countries, but will only pay the US rate overall. My first year in the US, the US government paid me US$600 because in their eyes, I had paid the UK too much in taxes for the 5 months I had worked there.

The hassle is that you still have to file with the IRS, even if your actual tax liability to the US is zero.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#370

Post by sokoloff »

kaboomman wrote: post #240
academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

This. Living (even partially) overseas as someone who was born in the U.S. has so many disadvantages. The U.S. is the only country in the world that imposes global tax. Not only that, taxes are really complex and cost a fortune to file if you have overseas assets. Now, add to that that I cannot sign up for many bank accounts or other financial institutions because they don't accept U.S. customers - they don't want to…

Eritrea imposes a global tax as well.
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