Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#561

Post by raxxorrax » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:48 PM UTC

secondo wrote: post #53

It's quite easy to extrapolate this and in a few steps end up in a boring dystopia. First it's iPhone photos, then it's all iCloud files, that spills into Macs using iCloud, then it's client side reporting of local Mac files, and somewhere along all other Apple hardware I've filled my home with have received equivalent updates and are phoning home to verify that I don't have files or whatever data they can see or hea…

> What is the utopian perspective of this

You will make Apple tons of money.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#562

Post by drvdevd » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #474

drvdevd wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you worked on an actual contract catching these sorts of people you are perhaps in a unique position to answer the question: will this sort of blanket surveillance technique in general but also in iOS specifically - actually work to help catch them?

I'm the person you're responding to, and I think so? My contract was on data that wasn't surveilled, it was willingly supplied in bad faith. Fake names, etc. And there was cause / outside evidence to look into it. I can't really go into more details than that, but it wasn't for an intelligence agency. It was for another party that wanted to hand something over to the police after they found out what was happening.

I see. I was responding to you, yes. And in this case I was more curious about your opinion - based on your previous knowledge - on the viability of Apple’s technology here, rather than the specific details of your work.

In my (uninformed) opinion - this looks like more of a bad faith move on Apples part that will maybe catch some bad actors but will be a net harmful result for apple’s users and society, as expressed in the Twitter thread.

Others who responded here though also seem to think it’ll be a viable technique.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#563

Post by onetimeusename » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

mortenjorck wrote: post #518

onetimeusename wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The database seems legally murky. First of all, who would want to actually manually verify that there aren't any images in it that shouldn't be? If the public can even request to see it, which I doubt, would you be added to a watch list of potentially dangerous people or destroy your own reputation? Who adds images to it and where do they get those images from? My point is that we have no way to verify the database w…

It’s a database of hashes, not images, though, right? I would argue the hashes absolutely should be public, just as any law should be public (and yes, I am aware of some outrageously brazen exceptions to even that). Anyone should be able to scan their own library against the database for false positives. “But predators could do this too and then delete anything that matches!” some might say, but in a society founded…

yes, it is a database of hashes but I don't know if the hashes are public information per se although I am sure copies of it are floating around. But I am referring to the images that the hashes are generated from. There is no verification of these that I know of. No one would want to do that and if you did you might be breaking the law.

The law requires companies like Google and Apple to report when they find CSAM and afiact they would generate hashes and add to this database if new material is found.

I don't know if there is any oversight in this. It's all done behind closed doors so you just have to trust that the people creating the hashes aren't doing anything nefarious or mistaken and that's a separate point apart from what others have said on here that you should be able to trust your devices you own to not be informants against you.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#564

Post by junon » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #535

junon wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are either cops, or uncaught criminals. ..and they wonder why they have so much trouble making non-cop friends (DISCLAIMER: I know a number of cops). Ehh let's not make a habit of asserting anecdote as fact, please. Saying you know cops is like saying you know black people and that somehow it affords you some privilege others do not possess. This is a weak and ad-hom argument.

I really appreciate having my words taken out of context, and wrapped in insults. I probably could have done without the second sentence, but the first stands. Have a nice day.

Please point to where I insulted you.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#565

Post by at_a_remove » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

I have so many questions about the implementation details.

1) Does this work only on iPhones or will it be iPads, as well?

2) Is this part of a system software update? I wonder if that will show up in the notes and how it would be spun. "In order to better protect our users ..."

3) If it is part of the system software update, will they be trying to make it run on older iDevices?

4) Is it just photos in your photo bin, iCloud, or does it start grabbing at network drives it attaches to? I could see the latter being prone to blowing up in their proverbial faces.

The Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse ride again!

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#566

Post by junon » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:54 PM UTC

freshdonut wrote: post #534

junon wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are either cops, or uncaught criminals. ..and they wonder why they have so much trouble making non-cop friends (DISCLAIMER: I know a number of cops). Ehh let's not make a habit of asserting anecdote as fact, please. Saying you know cops is like saying you know black people and that somehow it affords you some privilege others do not possess. This is a weak and ad-hom argument.

> is like saying you know black people and that somehow it affords you some privilege others do not possess. Of course it does. Interacting with black people (or any race) affords you insight into their life experiences, struggles, worldview etc... Of course sociological discourse is highly subjective but this attitude on HN that anecdotal data has no value whatsoever is silly. Do you seriously expect every fact of e…

Was alluding to the common argument of "I can say the N word, I know black people" spiel. You've missed my point, I suspect on purpose.

Just knowing someone of a particular demographic doesn't mean you're entitled to generalize about them. That's not how discourse works.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#567

Post by JKCalhoun » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

Bjartr wrote: post #557

hprotagonist wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps heed the warnings? And then take what actions, exactly? “Guys this is trouble” is …fine, but without “and we should therefore do”, it’s just kind of spitting into the wind.

The warning: "Don't buy Apple products, their locked down hardware and walled garden is going to be trouble" People: Ignore warning, buy iPhone You: "Don't buy Apple products" isn't an action.

> Don't buy Apple products...

What is the follow-on? Which products should we buy then? Any phone other than Apple's? None?

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#568

Post by raxxorrax » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

djd7duehrj wrote: post #43

pseudalopex wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power corrupts.

The government in your country most likely could already oppress you if it wanted to.

Yes, it probably could. And Apple users are helping them to normalize constant surveillance of private information. This is a read permission on the content of you phone.

There is literature about how obedience enables totalitarianism. Tons of it. Should be part of any schools curriculum in my opinion.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#569

Post by dijit » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

Bjartr wrote: post #557

hprotagonist wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps heed the warnings? And then take what actions, exactly? “Guys this is trouble” is …fine, but without “and we should therefore do”, it’s just kind of spitting into the wind.

The warning: "Don't buy Apple products, their locked down hardware and walled garden is going to be trouble" People: Ignore warning, buy iPhone You: "Don't buy Apple products" isn't an action.

The alternative is?

Google phone? This is not an alternative if you care about privacy.

The allegory presented sounds insane (growing your own food) but honestly if you're not rolling your own flashed ROM on a 'droid then your privacy is dead already;

I understand throwing all your eggs in one basket is a terrible idea but Apples walled garden and heavy sandboxing was at least somewhat protective.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#570

Post by ksec » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

hprotagonist wrote: post #549

raxxorrax wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Great, so what's the solution? Seriously? Perhaps heed the warnings? Whenever Apple tightened the reigns, thousand of apologists came to their defense. I wouldn't even have minded if they kept their obedience to personal decisions. But they extended their enlightenment to others.

> Perhaps heed the warnings? And then take what actions, exactly? “Guys this is trouble” is …fine, but without “and we should therefore do”, it’s just kind of spitting into the wind.

The first ( and only ) way to solve any problem is to first admit it is a problem.

It doesn't even need to be an "action". You will have to be at least conscious of what is happening.

That is not what is happening, right now ( or before that ) many are defending Apple, and also an attitude of not "my problem". Writing off any warning as either pessimistic or conspiracy. Having some healthy dose of skepticism is somewhat an unpopular view in modern day society. Especially in Tech and America.

An action could and will be taken once enough people are conscious of what is happening. Right now the scale and critical mass just isn't there (yet).