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Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

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Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#201
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a person has no income or capital gains from the U.S. and doesn’t live in the U.S. shouldn’t they be exempt from paying U.S. taxes? Also, shouldn’t foreign financial institutions be exempt from reporting to the U.S. about financial activities of U.S. citizens when they are outside the U.S.? I think the answer to both questions ought to be yes. EDIT: I’m aware of the rules regarding income taxes for Americans based…

Wouldn't this create loopholes? A US citizen could leave the US to make foreign investments, then come back to the US and be exempt on taxes on this foreign investments while enjoying the benefits of being in the US and not paying their share of taxes.

Most civilized countries determine tax status based on where the person lived for the year. Reporting how much you earn overseas is one thing, but paying taxes twice while living and earning overseas is extraordinarily cruel.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#202
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one's moving the Europe for the lower taxes.

If you're software engineer in Poland and spend some time architecting your contract, you can pay only 5% income tax (+ irrelevant amount for social security) as "R&D tax relief for commercializing IP rights". Point you're making applies to countries like Belgium or France.

You'll still get like 10% of a US salary though.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#203
post #70

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

> Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else I believe Eritrea does this, too. They don't have as much political power as the US though, so they resort to torturing your remaining family members in the country to get you to comply.

And it's not as if Eritrean migrants or refugees are welcomed with open arms anywhere in the world, so there aren't that many in that position in the first place.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#204
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyprus gives you access to the EU while being a tax haven. https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/11/9/21547055/eric-schmidt-g...

Well, you know that you pay taxes on the country you live & work in ? So you have to find a job and a house in Cyprus. And on top of that, Cyprus is one of the few european countries that are not yet in the Schengen area. So you'll have to stay on the tiny 9,251 Square Kilometers.

> Well, you know that you pay taxes on the country you live & work in ? So you have to find a job and a house in Cyprus.

Remote work? Or own a foreign company and pay yourself in dividends? These are extremely common cases.

> And on top of that, Cyprus is one of the few european countries that are not yet in the Schengen area. So you'll have to stay on the tiny 9,251 Square Kilometers.

That's not how Schengen works: Schengen is about being able to freely travel in the Schengen area without having to even show your passport / national ID card. For example I regularly cross borders, by car, between Belgium, France, Spain, Monaco and Andorra (Monaco is Schengen while Andorra, wonderful place on earth btw, is not, but Andorra has got agreements for free travel with France and Spain anyway) and I've never been asked my ID once. Heck, lately I've always been doing my PCR tests, as officially required due to the sars-cov-2 restrictions, and although it's mandatory to cross borders I've never been asked to show them.

A passport from Cyprus allows you to travel, without the need for a visa, to most countries in the world if I'm not mistaken. The thing is: because Cyprus is an island you'll very often be flying to/from there and you'll have to show your passport. But you're definitely not stuck on the island.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the point is that generally there is some expectation of loyalty to the country that allowed you to become super-rich in the first place. In finance specifically many of these people participated in outsourcing a huge chunk of the American economy for short term profit and their own gain and are now abandoning ship abandoning your country for lower taxes so you can "live your lifestyle without missing a beat" is disg…

The wealthy in America cover the bulk of the tax revenue collected if the IRS stats are to be trusted.

I'd say that's less about the generosity of the wealthy and more about the huge rise in concentration of wealth that we've allowed over the last 50 years: https://www.chartbookofeconomicinequality.com/inequality-by-...

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From the bottom of my heart, fuck off. If you get blackmailed, abducted, squeezed or raided in any way, the U.S. will have the privilege of not caring. Guess you have never lived abroad? If you think the US doesnt care about you when you’re in country, you dont even exist when you’re out of it. Imagine being in the middle of a coup, calling up your consulate for guidance only to find out that they all left the coun…

> Imagine being in the middle of a coup, calling up your consulate for guidance only to find out that they all left the country or are hiding in their bunkers. Been through that before. What, exactly, was your expectation? That they'd send out Navy SEALs to rescue you?

Oh no. I understand that america’s military exists mosty to force christianity on the world and to maintain high oil prices, not to protect little old me.

I just expected them to, you know, pick up the phone or have a hotline with a recording of suggestions.

I left the usa a long time ago, and the only interaction I need with them is a new passport every 2 years when I run out of pages for stamps.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#207
post #122
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What biblical reference are you alluding to? I'm not sure how its relevant to the question of where the rich who leave the USA go?

It's all terribly off-topic, but presumably they are talking about Matthew 19:24, which says (ymmv based on your exact translation): "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

Thanks. Yes, off-topic. Particularly considering that according to Genesis 13:2, Abraham (key for Paul's argument in Romans 4 for justification by faith) was "very rich in gold, silver, and cattle", and that in 1 Timothy 6, Paul warns Timothy not against riches per se, but against " the love of money".

Biblically speaking, its not whether one is rich or not, but whether one loves (or worships) riches and the associated power, or whether one uses his or her riches to serve God and love one's neighbor. Thus Paul wrote of learning to be content in plenty or in want, and James warns of not showing favoritism to the rich (echoing perhaps the Old Testament command to not pervert justice in favor of the poor or of the rich).

Trying to tie this thread back into the topic.... I guess it was good that when Abram emigrated from Ur in his home country, the Chaldeans Revenue Service didn't have the steep exit tax that the US imposes on rich emigrants.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#208

I'm an "accidental American" who has navigated this issue and it's incredibly easy. Just don't file. Every professional that writes blogs about this has a professional duty to give legal advice but the practical advice is just don't file. Look into what exactly triggers data to be sent to the IRS under your tax treaty and the policies of your financial institutions. Being "accidental" is the key here. If you tell you…

> You have a duty not to comply.

If you're making income in America, you owe US tax taxes.

If you are a permanent resident of the United States, you owe US taxes.

Whether the IRS is using mafia tactics or not, what you are describing is tax evasion. There are legal ways to minimize your tax burden, but this is horrible advise.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#210

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

Your representation is a bit exaggerated. The law simplistically simplifies to: if your income is above $X, then if your foreign tax payment $Y is less than the theoretical amount of tax you would have paid doing the same work under American Tax laws $Z, then please remit the difference ($Z-$Y) to the American government.

I've personally filled out the forms several times, for multiple periods (full and partial). However I do agree with you: sure it would be nice not to pay that fee, isn't that true of every expense in general?

It seems you either have a complicated personal situation or are in a jurisdiction that's purposefully set up to benefit/interact with the US in a tax advantagous way (aka a tax shelter, though that's going away - see general harmonization trends in EU, etc). Without delving into your personal situation, your personal tax situation should not impact your employment. Your citizenship might in certain highly regulated industries maybe. In the US you are not asked if you file joint or single on your tax return as part of the interview.

You are correct on renounciation. And worse, let's assume the renounciation fee is 1/3rd of the wealth, should your net worth be concentrated and iliquid (you own nothing but a paid off home) you now need to generate a transaction which you might not want to otherwise do (sentimental, bad timing, poor market prices for the asset or low liquidity).

If you have a complicated personal situation, you also hire professional help even if you reside purely domestically. Not fair to pin it all on the foreign taxation code.

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