Microsoft Edge Experimenting with a Super Duper Secure Mode • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft Edge Experimenting with a Super Duper Secure Mode

#31

Post by axiosgunnar » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 10:06 AM UTC

ho_schi wrote: post #23

I dare it - turn off JavaScript!? Websites doesn't require JavaScript, what really needs JavaScript are Singe-Page-Web-Apps-Somethings with anti-patterns like infinite scrolling. You get two things in return, a "super duper" fast web and a more secure web-browser. For example Amazon supports usage without JavaScript very well. Another experience is Stackoverflow, things like the preview and highlighting doesn't work.…

How is infinite scroll an antipattern?

It‘s simply like having an automatic transmission in an ICE car.

The motor type is an implementation detail the user does not want to care about.

I want to press the pedal and the car accelerates. What happens in the background does not concern me.

Same for websites.

If I see a list that is larger than the height of my screen, I want to be able to keep scrolling until I decide to stop.

I do not care that the creators of the website have structured their database so that the current DB would return 573738 entries.

I also do not care that the way the developers decided to present the application to me (via a browser) means that every row entry is a HTML element and showing 573738 HTML nodes at once would slow down the browser.

I just want to keep scrolling (and will stop after a few hundred rows anyways).

Having these kind of ivory tower fringe opinions like „infinite scroll bad“ is gate-keeping by middle-aged backend devs that panic at the speed and impact of the frontend world, plain and simple.

Re: Microsoft Edge Experimenting with a Super Duper Secure Mode

#32

Post by austincheney » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 10:15 AM UTC

ho_schi wrote: post #23

I dare it - turn off JavaScript!? Websites doesn't require JavaScript, what really needs JavaScript are Singe-Page-Web-Apps-Somethings with anti-patterns like infinite scrolling. You get two things in return, a "super duper" fast web and a more secure web-browser. For example Amazon supports usage without JavaScript very well. Another experience is Stackoverflow, things like the preview and highlighting doesn't work.…

What I find most interesting as a JavaScript developer is that almost no open source projects will touch the stupidity of giant SPA frameworks. Seriously, if you are writing software on your own time why burn that time away digging in the trash?

On the contrary JavaScript developers that don’t contribute to open source cannot write two lines of code without some disgustingly bloated framework and a million dependencies to do half their job for them. You can’t even get hired without completely caving into the stupidity. It feels like cult membership lighting money on fire.

Re: Microsoft Edge Experimenting with a Super Duper Secure Mode

#33

Post by 411111111111111 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 10:22 AM UTC

axiosgunnar wrote: post #31

ho_schi wrote: post #23

I dare it - turn off JavaScript!? Websites doesn't require JavaScript, what really needs JavaScript are Singe-Page-Web-Apps-Somethings with anti-patterns like infinite scrolling. You get two things in return, a "super duper" fast web and a more secure web-browser. For example Amazon supports usage without JavaScript very well. Another experience is Stackoverflow, things like the preview and highlighting doesn't work.…

How is infinite scroll an antipattern? It‘s simply like having an automatic transmission in an ICE car. The motor type is an implementation detail the user does not want to care about. I want to press the pedal and the car accelerates. What happens in the background does not concern me. Same for websites. If I see a list that is larger than the height of my screen, I want to be able to keep scrolling until I decide t…

I wouldn't call it an antipattern either - it literally does exactly what the programmer wants, but it's definitely a dark pattern.

Most of us humans have an urge to finish things, but infinite scroll by definition never finishes. This increases engagement of users by utilizing their psychology, which is basically the definition of a dark pattern.

There is an argument to be made that it also increases usability, so it's inception probably wasn't malicious. But it's definitely another product of today's addiction driven design philosophy if you just look at the psychological effect it has on users

Re: Microsoft Edge Experimenting with a Super Duper Secure Mode

#34

Post by amanaplanacanal » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 10:28 AM UTC

axiosgunnar wrote: post #31

ho_schi wrote: post #23

I dare it - turn off JavaScript!? Websites doesn't require JavaScript, what really needs JavaScript are Singe-Page-Web-Apps-Somethings with anti-patterns like infinite scrolling. You get two things in return, a "super duper" fast web and a more secure web-browser. For example Amazon supports usage without JavaScript very well. Another experience is Stackoverflow, things like the preview and highlighting doesn't work.…

How is infinite scroll an antipattern? It‘s simply like having an automatic transmission in an ICE car. The motor type is an implementation detail the user does not want to care about. I want to press the pedal and the car accelerates. What happens in the background does not concern me. Same for websites. If I see a list that is larger than the height of my screen, I want to be able to keep scrolling until I decide t…

It does break searching for content within a web page.

Re: Microsoft Edge Experimenting with a Super Duper Secure Mode

#35

Post by nsonha » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 10:32 AM UTC

axiosgunnar wrote: post #31

ho_schi wrote: post #23

I dare it - turn off JavaScript!? Websites doesn't require JavaScript, what really needs JavaScript are Singe-Page-Web-Apps-Somethings with anti-patterns like infinite scrolling. You get two things in return, a "super duper" fast web and a more secure web-browser. For example Amazon supports usage without JavaScript very well. Another experience is Stackoverflow, things like the preview and highlighting doesn't work.…

How is infinite scroll an antipattern? It‘s simply like having an automatic transmission in an ICE car. The motor type is an implementation detail the user does not want to care about. I want to press the pedal and the car accelerates. What happens in the background does not concern me. Same for websites. If I see a list that is larger than the height of my screen, I want to be able to keep scrolling until I decide t…

What form of book do you prefer to read? One with pages or a scroll which leave confused at all time on what part of the thing you are on or have read?

Re: Microsoft Edge Experimenting with a Super Duper Secure Mode

#36

Post by axiosgunnar » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 10:36 AM UTC

411111111111111 wrote: post #33

axiosgunnar wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is infinite scroll an antipattern? It‘s simply like having an automatic transmission in an ICE car. The motor type is an implementation detail the user does not want to care about. I want to press the pedal and the car accelerates. What happens in the background does not concern me. Same for websites. If I see a list that is larger than the height of my screen, I want to be able to keep scrolling until I decide t…

I wouldn't call it an antipattern either - it literally does exactly what the programmer wants, but it's definitely a dark pattern. Most of us humans have an urge to finish things, but infinite scroll by definition never finishes. This increases engagement of users by utilizing their psychology, which is basically the definition of a dark pattern. There is an argument to be made that it also increases usability, so i…

Infinite scroll is a tool.

Your problem is with pointless dark-pattern ridden attention-grabbing social media using that tool (and rightfully so!).

Now imagine a useful application, like an email program.

Infinite scroll is useful there.

Imagine having a paginated inbox!

Re: Microsoft Edge Experimenting with a Super Duper Secure Mode

#37

Post by axiosgunnar » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 10:37 AM UTC

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #34

axiosgunnar wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is infinite scroll an antipattern? It‘s simply like having an automatic transmission in an ICE car. The motor type is an implementation detail the user does not want to care about. I want to press the pedal and the car accelerates. What happens in the background does not concern me. Same for websites. If I see a list that is larger than the height of my screen, I want to be able to keep scrolling until I decide t…

It does break searching for content within a web page.

Ok, but the content wouldn't be there (and thus searchable) either if the website used pagination, no?

Re: Microsoft Edge Experimenting with a Super Duper Secure Mode

#38

Post by axiosgunnar » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 10:40 AM UTC

nsonha wrote: post #35

axiosgunnar wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is infinite scroll an antipattern? It‘s simply like having an automatic transmission in an ICE car. The motor type is an implementation detail the user does not want to care about. I want to press the pedal and the car accelerates. What happens in the background does not concern me. Same for websites. If I see a list that is larger than the height of my screen, I want to be able to keep scrolling until I decide t…

What form of book do you prefer to read? One with pages or a scroll which leave confused at all time on what part of the thing you are on or have read?

In fact I do prefer to read books as a large seamless HTML file rather than a paginated PDF file that has cuts (new pages) at arbitrary positions.

Now, of course the ideal way to read a book is probably a navigation/outline sidebar on the left, and then the content of the current chapter in the main pane.

Kind of like the Rust book: https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/

Re: Microsoft Edge Experimenting with a Super Duper Secure Mode

#39

Post by rakoo » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 10:41 AM UTC

ho_schi wrote: post #23

I dare it - turn off JavaScript!? Websites doesn't require JavaScript, what really needs JavaScript are Singe-Page-Web-Apps-Somethings with anti-patterns like infinite scrolling. You get two things in return, a "super duper" fast web and a more secure web-browser. For example Amazon supports usage without JavaScript very well. Another experience is Stackoverflow, things like the preview and highlighting doesn't work.…

I'm using uBlock Origin more or less in nightmare mode (https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Blocking-mode:-nightm...): all 3rd party stuff blocked, inline and 1st party scripts blocked. Some websites work out of the box and I love them, but too many still want me to enable 1st party scripts and 3rd party resources to at least display correctly even though most of the content I'm consuming is text.

This is also one of the reason I'm hoping more people write in Gemini, because it's just text

> Can you imagine using Hackernews without JavaScript?

It definitely works, it's just a very few small features that need javascript. The most important for me is the ability to collapse sub-threads, which is mandatory when reading threads with lots of comments.

Re: Microsoft Edge Experimenting with a Super Duper Secure Mode

#40

Post by kall » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 10:46 AM UTC

bob1029 wrote: post #26

ho_schi wrote: post #23

I dare it - turn off JavaScript!? Websites doesn't require JavaScript, what really needs JavaScript are Singe-Page-Web-Apps-Somethings with anti-patterns like infinite scrolling. You get two things in return, a "super duper" fast web and a more secure web-browser. For example Amazon supports usage without JavaScript very well. Another experience is Stackoverflow, things like the preview and highlighting doesn't work.…

I'm 100% on board with this line of thinking, but the edge case that the business keeps complaining about is being able to push async events to the client. How would we accomplish this sort of UX without javascript?

I believe you can utilize partial http response streaming that never stops and there is even a way to replace html fragments. I‘m sure i‘ve seen this, but I am having no luck finding anything about it.

Edit: here it is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16319248