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Launch HN: Keyri (YC S21) – Secure smartphone-based passwordless authentication

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71–80 of 98 posts

Re: Launch HN: Keyri (YC S21) – Secure smartphone-based passwordless authentication

#71
post #35

I was immediately intrigued by the proposal, though I can't imagine ever wanting to rely on my phone to be identified (what if my battery dies? I left it in another room? hey, a customer is gone and that sale has not gone through). > They also allow users to share their subscription accounts with others, robbing companies of revenue. This made me question your motives: "robbing" is a very strong statement for somethi…

Regarding your first point: phones are already intrinsic to authentication, whether it's through SMS OTP, TOTP, or push notification verification. Wherever you have 2FA enabled (other than email magic link), you are generally SOL if you lose your phone. We are well past the days when people would forget their phone at home, and most people have their phones within reach. That said, our early customers are looking to…

Thanks for the response. The way I use passwords is way safer than Keyri, so not having the option limits those extra security conscious users (you have certainly heard of hardware OTP devices like Yubikeys). Sure, you are likely right that on-average, Keyri-like approach is more secure (just like biometrics), and that's definitely where your potential for business lies (with companies looking to increase that average).

As I said in a comment below, the fact that companies "can afford" is not the same as "it's worth it" to them, and per-seat pricing is "robbing" those customers when there is no increased value for the customer or increased cost to the provider: make a product that's valuable to be per-seat, and customers will pay for it (sure, some who can't afford it won't, but that's not lost revenue anyway)!

Finally, with OpenID, I can set up my own identity provider, or use a privacy conscious one. Unfortunately, almost no web sites accept pure OpenID (they did for a while ~10 years ago), but instead only a limited set of "large" providers. However, a company can easily decide to support arbitrary OpenID providers instead of just Google SSO or Keyri, and then users can choose how much they care about their privacy and use an appropriate provider.

In short, web sites are not implementing OpenID authentication, but instead somewhat-custom SSO through Google/Facebook that mostly uses OpenID Connect (Oauth) protocol for authorization (in a way, it could be any other protocol that preserves the security properties of OpenID Connect).

Re: Launch HN: Keyri (YC S21) – Secure smartphone-based passwordless authentication

#72

For the smartphone case, why would I want to pay for Keyri, rather than use WebAuthn (for the web) or the smartphone OS-provided FIDO2 feature that ships with the OS? https://developers.google.com/identity/fido/android/native-a...

WebAuthn has the added benefits of not being tied to any single vendor, and on the desktop you can use it with a hardware security key instead of a smartphone (people without smartphones who use services on the web exist you know). On a smartphone it just uses the Trusted Platform Module as its key store.

Re: Launch HN: Keyri (YC S21) – Secure smartphone-based passwordless authentication

#73
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding your first point: phones are already intrinsic to authentication, whether it's through SMS OTP, TOTP, or push notification verification. Wherever you have 2FA enabled (other than email magic link), you are generally SOL if you lose your phone. We are well past the days when people would forget their phone at home, and most people have their phones within reach. That said, our early customers are looking to…

Thanks for the response. The way I use passwords is way safer than Keyri, so not having the option limits those extra security conscious users (you have certainly heard of hardware OTP devices like Yubikeys). Sure, you are likely right that on-average, Keyri-like approach is more secure (just like biometrics), and that's definitely where your potential for business lies (with companies looking to increase that averag…

> ... per-seat pricing is "robbing" those customers when there is no increased value for the customer or increased cost to the provider

A good example of a company doing that is Zendesk: as an engineer, I want to make a comment on a support ticket once every 3-6 months, but Zendesk would require my company to pay for another user license to do that. That's not value provided nor is there a cost for them in having another non-read-only account. They are attempting to rob their customers instead.

Re: Launch HN: Keyri (YC S21) – Secure smartphone-based passwordless authentication

#74
post #35

I was immediately intrigued by the proposal, though I can't imagine ever wanting to rely on my phone to be identified (what if my battery dies? I left it in another room? hey, a customer is gone and that sale has not gone through). > They also allow users to share their subscription accounts with others, robbing companies of revenue. This made me question your motives: "robbing" is a very strong statement for somethi…

Regarding your first point: phones are already intrinsic to authentication, whether it's through SMS OTP, TOTP, or push notification verification. Wherever you have 2FA enabled (other than email magic link), you are generally SOL if you lose your phone. We are well past the days when people would forget their phone at home, and most people have their phones within reach. That said, our early customers are looking to…

> Wherever you have 2FA enabled (other than email magic link), you are generally SOL if you lose your phone.

I realize this is not exactly widespread (neither on the user nor the provider site), but as we are on HN: Luckily security keys exist and are cheap enough to have backups. I hate having to use my phone for 2FA (but also realize that I’m in a tiny minority there)

Re: Launch HN: Keyri (YC S21) – Secure smartphone-based passwordless authentication

#75
post #35

I was immediately intrigued by the proposal, though I can't imagine ever wanting to rely on my phone to be identified (what if my battery dies? I left it in another room? hey, a customer is gone and that sale has not gone through). > They also allow users to share their subscription accounts with others, robbing companies of revenue. This made me question your motives: "robbing" is a very strong statement for somethi…

Regarding your first point: phones are already intrinsic to authentication, whether it's through SMS OTP, TOTP, or push notification verification. Wherever you have 2FA enabled (other than email magic link), you are generally SOL if you lose your phone. We are well past the days when people would forget their phone at home, and most people have their phones within reach. That said, our early customers are looking to…

> That said, our early customers are looking to deploy Keyri as an option parallel to password-based auth, which, while not ideal, is a smooth way to transition their users to a better UX that just happens to be more secure.

While you should certainly hope that this is just a "transition step", I am sure you are treating it as a business risk as well: companies will frequently have people who are downgrading their security and convenience by moving to Keyri (eg. people like me :), and they will always push back. After a while, those companies might decide that it's not worth it to keep both options available, Keyri will be the one to go (some will, of course, decide otherwise). I am sure you will be tracking this, but it's worth pointing out that this risk is there and not insignificant :)

Re: Launch HN: Keyri (YC S21) – Secure smartphone-based passwordless authentication

#76
Congratulations on the launch of Keyri!

I run a problem validation platform and the need-gap in 'Password less authentication' is being tracked here[1].

You're welcomed to explain how Keyri addresses that need-gap so those who need it can find it easily.

[1] https://needgap.com/problems/49-password-less-authentication...

Re: Launch HN: Keyri (YC S21) – Secure smartphone-based passwordless authentication

#78
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Account sharing is never unethical. It's my account and I'll damn well give access to whoever I please. Services such as Netflix mitigate this by limiting the amount of concurrent use, which is fine.

That's a fair point for services that limit use based on number of concurrent devices/streams. There are, however, many services that explicitly state the account may only be used by a given single user and those providers will seek legal action if that user shares their account. This ultimately leads to significant pain for both the company and user.

It's a fair point for any service. If the service doesn't actually provide a service they can control concurrent access to, then it doesn't cost them anything. So you're literally just trying to scam your customers. Gross.

Re: Launch HN: Keyri (YC S21) – Secure smartphone-based passwordless authentication

#79
Unfortunately, this enables vendors to prevent fair-use account sharing, and it looks like to implement some sort of DRM. My team at a small company used SurveyMonkey and only allowed two devices to login, and we paid for only one user license. However, our position was split into two part-time jobs; hence the pricing would have been unfair. I think your service is a good solution, as long as SaaS providers implement more reasonable licensing models.

Re: Launch HN: Keyri (YC S21) – Secure smartphone-based passwordless authentication

#80
post #73
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the response. The way I use passwords is way safer than Keyri, so not having the option limits those extra security conscious users (you have certainly heard of hardware OTP devices like Yubikeys). Sure, you are likely right that on-average, Keyri-like approach is more secure (just like biometrics), and that's definitely where your potential for business lies (with companies looking to increase that averag…

> ... per-seat pricing is "robbing" those customers when there is no increased value for the customer or increased cost to the provider A good example of a company doing that is Zendesk: as an engineer, I want to make a comment on a support ticket once every 3-6 months, but Zendesk would require my company to pay for another user license to do that. That's not value provided nor is there a cost for them in having ano…

Eliminating account sharing does not preclude offering the ability to share seats. Zendesk could very well offer their customers a way to provision users like you a limited account or some other mechanism that allows commenting on a support ticket every now and then. For example, Netflix offers a mechanism to formally invite members of your household to your account for free, which is the scope of "account sharing" that they allow in their TOS.

Either way, it's in Zendesk's and Netflix's best interest to make sure that a given account is used only by the person they were told would use it when the account was purchased, both from a business perspective and a security perspective. How they can address the needs of their customers while enforcing their stated TOS with a mechanism like Keyri is up to them.

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