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Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

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Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#101

Post by nicce »

benrbray wrote: post #77
roberttod wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe it's built on hashing, so it'll only find images in the db they have with already known content. Your own photos won't get mixed up.

Ah, I guess unsurprisingly the twitter thread is light on details. I saw "perceptual hash" which I usually interpret to mean some kind of feature-based semantic hash that is not as sensitive to small edits. Even if it isn't currently used, the door is open for it to be implemented in the future.

Perceptual hashing would make bit more sense. Flip one bit from the image to avoid detection otherwise.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#102

Post by 0xy »

aphroz wrote: post #96
meowface wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give more information about this? What kind of legal images might it match?

What about pictures of you own children naked ?

This isn't CSAM or illegal, nor would it ever end up in a database. Speaking generally, content has to be sexualized or have a sexual purpose to be illegal. Simple nudity does not count inherently.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#103

Post by SilverRed »

aphroz wrote: post #96
meowface wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give more information about this? What kind of legal images might it match?

What about pictures of you own children naked ?

Since this is using a db of known images. I doubt that would be an issue. I believe the idea here is that once police raid an illegal site, they collect all of the images in a db and then want to know a list of every person who had these images saved.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#104

Post by JackeJR »

The slippery slope argument is that the use of this method on private files, i.e. not shared with others except for the service provider can legitimise the expansion of such scamming scopes.

While this argument can and have indeed happened in other instances, this is akin to saying that we should not give anyone any powers to do anything because it is a slippery slope that they can use it to do bad things.

What then sets out the difference between what a slippery slope and a non-slippery one is? Checks and balances and the history of USA have shown that this is indeed what can reign in the worst instincts of any single entity. History of course have also shown when these failed and these should serve not as a reason to reject the idea of checks and balances but as acknowledging it's imperfection and think of ways to mitigate it.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#105

Post by SilverRed »

Santosh83 wrote: post #74
secondo wrote: post #53

It's quite easy to extrapolate this and in a few steps end up in a boring dystopia. First it's iPhone photos, then it's all iCloud files, that spills into Macs using iCloud, then it's client side reporting of local Mac files, and somewhere along all other Apple hardware I've filled my home with have received equivalent updates and are phoning home to verify that I don't have files or whatever data they can see or hea…

> What is the utopian perspective of this which counterbalances the risks for this to be a path worth taking? Apple takes care of everything for you, and they have your best interests at heart. You will be safe, secure, private and seamlessly integrated with your beautiful devices, so you can more efficiently consume. What's not to like about a world where child crime, terrorism, abuse, radical/harmful content and mi…

No one here has a problem with the worst criminals being taken out. The problem is the scope creep that always comes after.

In 2021 and 2020 we saw people being arrested for planning/promoting anti lockdown protests. Not for actually participating but for simply posting about it. The scope of what "harmful content" is is infinite. You might agree that police do need to take action against these people but surely you can see how the scope creeped from literal terrorists and pedophiles to edgy facebook mums and how that could move even further to simple criticisms of the government or religion.

It's difficult to say how we draw the line to make sure horrible crimes go punished while still protecting reasonable privacy and freedom. I'm guessing apples justification here is that they are not sending your photos to police but simply checking them against known bad hashes and if you are not a pedophile, there will be no matches and none of your data will have been exposed.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#106

Post by SilverRed »

onetimeusename wrote: post #71
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #3

So if I understand correctly, they want to scan all your photos, stored on your private phone, that you paid for, and they want to check if any of the hashes are the same as hashes of child porn? So... all your hashes will be uploaded to the cloud? How do you prevent them from scanning other stuff (memes, leaked documents, trump-fights-cnn-gif,... to profile the users)? Or will a huge hash database of child porn hash…

I agree, I would add that people have generated legal images that match the hashes. So I want to ask what happens if you have a photo that is falsely identified as one in question and then an automated mechanism flags you and reports you to the FBI without you even knowing. Can they access your phone at that point to investigate? Would they come to your office and ask about it? Would that be enough evidence to reques…

>I would add that people have generated legal images that match the hashes.

That seems like a realistic attack. Since the hash list is public (has to be for client side scanning), you could likely set your computer to grind out a matching image hash but of some meme which you then distribute.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#107

Post by nostromo »

akersten wrote: post #100

If you like this, I have some other innovations that you may be interested in: * A car that automatically pulls over when a police cruiser attempts to intercept you * A front door that unlocks when a cop knocks * A camera that uses AI to detect and prevent the photography of minors, police, and critical infrastructure * A Smart TV that counts the number of people in your living room to ensure you aren't performing an…

No need for hypotheticals, 2020 was a huge win for the police state.

The UK and Israel allowed cops to monitor cell phone locations to crack down on unlawful gatherings in private homes.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/17/israel-to-trac...

The problem with allowing this is that you’re paving the way for future tyrants to use it against us.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#108

Post by ddtaylor »

akersten wrote: post #100

If you like this, I have some other innovations that you may be interested in: * A car that automatically pulls over when a police cruiser attempts to intercept you * A front door that unlocks when a cop knocks * A camera that uses AI to detect and prevent the photography of minors, police, and critical infrastructure * A Smart TV that counts the number of people in your living room to ensure you aren't performing an…

I'm okay with all of those things. Keep everyone protected and safe.

Re: Apple enabling client-side CSAM scanning on iPhone tomorrow

#110

Post by Calvin02 »

JackeJR wrote: post #104

The slippery slope argument is that the use of this method on private files, i.e. not shared with others except for the service provider can legitimise the expansion of such scamming scopes. While this argument can and have indeed happened in other instances, this is akin to saying that we should not give anyone any powers to do anything because it is a slippery slope that they can use it to do bad things. What then…

I think the checks and balances are pretty fragile and very susceptible to public opinion.

Two instances: 1) Post 9/11 Patriot Law 2) McCarthy era: https://www.e-ir.info/2011/11/03/the-extraordinary-injustice...

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