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Does the Tuskegee experiment explain black vaccination rates?

mattbruenig.com

41–50 of 74 posts

Re: Does the Tuskegee experiment explain black vaccination rates?

#41
post #28

Either the government should have swiftly mandated total lockdown and vaccination, or they should not have said a tweet about covid response and delegated to medical professionals and scientists. The real tragedy is that covid and vaccines have even entered the political sphere of discourse in the first place. Act swiftly with the best interest of your people at heart and face consequences later, or let the virus win…

I mean come on dude, which world were you living in the last 18 months?

Trump and the GOP have heavily pushed covid into the political sphere. The right wing has worked relentlessly to frame the pandemic in the most political frame possible.

To try to pull some kind of 'well its really all sides' or 'all politicians ' that is doing a disservice to the truth of history.

There's a major difference between 'not wanting to cause a panic' and the total lies and abdication that characterize the early messages out of the Trump admin - think circa Feb/March 2020.

Re: Does the Tuskegee experiment explain black vaccination rates?

#42
>If the coronavirus vaccines were only being given to black people, then you could see how someone might reason that it is a trick. But they are being given to everyone, including over 100 million white people.

You could still give the whites the real vaccine and experiment with the blacks.

Re: Does the Tuskegee experiment explain black vaccination rates?

#43

> This theory checks off certain boxes that make it resonate well within current discourse frameworks, but it doesn’t really make a lot of sense. If the coronavirus vaccines were only being given to black people, then you could see how someone might reason that it is a trick. But they are being given to everyone, including over 100 million white people. Are we meant to think that black people who aren’t getting the v…

How do you know that the government is giving the same vaccines to whites and non-whites? I mean, I'm white, and I'm pretty sure that they are, but I could forgive a black person for not being so sure.

Conspiracy theories don't even make sense within their own universe any more. At a mass vaccination clinic, there is no "black line" or ""white line", people just randomly get in line, and since a vial has multiple doses in it, it's obvious the same vial serves all races of people in the line.

Favorite recent meme I saw "People who believe in conspiracy theories have never been project managers." That is, when you know how much of a herculean task it is to organize a group of say 20 people with a relatively small project, you understand how impossible it would be to have some mass, global conspiracy where everyone managed to keep their mouth shut.

Re: Does the Tuskegee experiment explain black vaccination rates?

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know that the government is giving the same vaccines to whites and non-whites? I mean, I'm white, and I'm pretty sure that they are, but I could forgive a black person for not being so sure.

Conspiracy theories don't even make sense within their own universe any more. At a mass vaccination clinic, there is no "black line" or ""white line", people just randomly get in line, and since a vial has multiple doses in it, it's obvious the same vial serves all races of people in the line. Favorite recent meme I saw "People who believe in conspiracy theories have never been project managers." That is, when you kn…

I dont mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but there is also only a single line at school, at colleges, at jobs, and at the courthouse -- yet outcomes are very, very different between different groups.

Re: Does the Tuskegee experiment explain black vaccination rates?

#45

> This theory checks off certain boxes that make it resonate well within current discourse frameworks, but it doesn’t really make a lot of sense. If the coronavirus vaccines were only being given to black people, then you could see how someone might reason that it is a trick. But they are being given to everyone, including over 100 million white people. Are we meant to think that black people who aren’t getting the v…

A better line of reasoning would be based on power symmetry rather than just race.

The Tuskegee experiment happened because the black population was essentially powerless to fight back, perhaps coupled with a feeling of contempt from the ruling class towards them as a people group. Power preys on weakness.

Fast forward to the current day, and although white populations have more power than black populations on average, the ruling elite has a total asymmetrical power advantage over both populations. Therefore, they are able to experiment upon the entire population without much repercussion.

Black people understand powerlessness from their history, and therefore they know to be on guard (more hesitant). White people are less familiar with powerlessness, and can be caught off guard (less hesitant).

Re: Does the Tuskegee experiment explain black vaccination rates?

#46
post #36

It seems like the Tuskegee narrative could have been correct when vaccines were first rolled out. At that time, front-line and medical workers were being urged to get vaccinated. These populations have a disproportionate share of minorities, so it would have been plausible that they would have felt like guinea pigs. But now that people of all races are being vaccinated, this idea doesn't make sense anymore.

> These populations have a disproportionate share of minorities, so it would have been plausible that they would have felt like guinea pigs. That's grossly overstating it. Whites make up 78% of all employed people, and 72.5% of all healthcare and social assistance workers. They also make up more than 62% of workers in every single subcategory of "healthcare and human assistance". That does not strike me as even remot…

In some places, the front-line worker category included people who work at target, walmart, grocery stores, etc.

Everywhere I've lived, these people skew minority. There are probably more of them than there are front line health care workers.

I appreciate your taking the time to run the numbers on health care workers though.

Re: Does the Tuskegee experiment explain black vaccination rates?

#47

> This theory checks off certain boxes that make it resonate well within current discourse frameworks, but it doesn’t really make a lot of sense. If the coronavirus vaccines were only being given to black people, then you could see how someone might reason that it is a trick. But they are being given to everyone, including over 100 million white people. Are we meant to think that black people who aren’t getting the v…

How do you know that the government is giving the same vaccines to whites and non-whites? I mean, I'm white, and I'm pretty sure that they are, but I could forgive a black person for not being so sure.

If you're that concerned about getting the "wrong" vaccine, you could just lie about your race when you sign up (of course, that would only deepen the racial divide in vaccination statistics)

Re: Does the Tuskegee experiment explain black vaccination rates?

#48

> This theory checks off certain boxes that make it resonate well within current discourse frameworks, but it doesn’t really make a lot of sense. If the coronavirus vaccines were only being given to black people, then you could see how someone might reason that it is a trick. But they are being given to everyone, including over 100 million white people. Are we meant to think that black people who aren’t getting the v…

The replies are so typical of these discussions. The media float a narrative without bothering to support it with any evidence. When someone actually looks and finds the easily available evidence says the exact opposite, that evidence is attacked and nitpicked as not rigorous enough to overturn the completely unsupported narrative. Where was all this skepticism before?

Re: Does the Tuskegee experiment explain black vaccination rates?

#49
> The experts I’ve talked to say issues like accessibility, a lack of investment in Black communities and overall health inequities are the biggest barriers for Black people to get the coronavirus vaccine.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-fewer-black-america...

> Barriers to vaccine access faced in many Hispanic communities — alongside the structural limitations communities of color generally face — stand in the way of higher vaccination rates, even as the vaccine becomes more widely available, according to public health experts and community health organizers.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/03/29/us/hispanic-v...

Re: Does the Tuskegee experiment explain black vaccination rates?

#50

> This theory checks off certain boxes that make it resonate well within current discourse frameworks, but it doesn’t really make a lot of sense. If the coronavirus vaccines were only being given to black people, then you could see how someone might reason that it is a trick. But they are being given to everyone, including over 100 million white people. Are we meant to think that black people who aren’t getting the v…

> Yes, this theory was always ridiculous. Like many other things we hear from the prestige media, it barely merits an eye-roll, let alone a full refutation. Nevertheless, I appreciate Bruenig taking the time.

I don't think that's fair. I find Bruenig's analysis reductive. It doesn't even look at Black vaccine hesitancy over time, which a halfway decent analysis would have done. What you see is that there is high hesitancy early on, and that hesitancy drops faster than many other groups as time progresses. It could be the case that skepticism, given the history of healthcare and the Black community, drove initial hesitancy, and then that waned as people saw millions of others do just fine. Bruenig's analysis would entirely miss that.

He also takes a huge leap in equating skepticism of healthcare more broadly in the Black community with skepticism of the vaccine in particular. There are so, so many assumptions he is just completely skating past here. E.g., it could entirely be the case that there is broad skepticism of healthcare in the Black community at all educational levels because of issues that persist to this very day (e.g. it's pretty well known that many people working in healthcare believe Black people are less susceptible to physical pain than white people). So, it's entirely plausible that you can start with a higher level of skepticism with respect to anything healthcare related within the Black community (e.g. because of both historical and/or current problems), but see decreasing vaccine hesitancy as education levels increase (e.g. because that correlates with better understanding of the vaccines and the trials it goes through). All of this would be entirely consistent with the data Bruenig presents, but would be entirely inconsistent with his conclusions.

What I am fundamentally getting at is that his analysis is reductive, and could potentially be explained by scenarios that are 100% counter to his conclusion.

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