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NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#641

Post by reader_mode »

ch4s3 wrote: post #527
SirensOfTitan wrote: post #39

To preface: I got the vaccine months ago (as soon as I had access), I'm a big believer in vaccines. With that being said, this policy doesn't sit well with me. None of the currently available vaccines in the US are FDA approved. Of course, a lot of people have received those vaccines, but I also don't necessarily fault individuals for feeling hesitant (the nuance here is that I think people ought to get the vaccine).…

> mRNA is a new, unknown technology This is untrue, researchers have been testing various mRNA therapies on people for 30 years, with it being first done in vitro in 1990 then in vivo in 1992 [1]. Lipid nano particles were first used around the same time. > the vaccine was rushed faster to public access than any other vaccine before This is only true if you ignore the development of the mRNA vaccine platform for flu,…

>This isn't a meaningful claim for 2 key reasons. There has never been a vaccine that had serious side effects that did show up shortly after vaccination[2]. The history of mRNA treatments began as an experiment in gene therapy, but has largely ben abandoned because the effects never lasted long enough. As of 2020 this is an ongoing area of research[3]. No one has figure out how to stabilize mRNA so that it has long lasting effects.

This isn't really what I'm worried about. Right now people are talking long COVID, subtle long term brain damage and it seems like mechanisms are still unknown. So who's to say that immune system reaction triggered by vaccination isn't causing same kind of hard to detect damage. I'd be much more comfortable with the vaccine if the long COVID studies included groups :

- no vaccination/hospitalised

- no vaccination/asymptomatic

- vaccination/not infected

- vaccination/infected

I'm not a risk group and have no problems with social distancing so I'm waiting for stuff like this to come out.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#642

Post by swader999 »

tayo42 wrote: post #622
swader999 wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they scan it with a call to the cloud to verify it? That's the real threat here - continuous tracking, ability to turn it off or geo fence you to a certain area.

I'm not sure the implentation but I have gotten my ID scanned to get into places and to buy lotto tickets Do you pay cash for everything? nnever use a credit card? Don't fly?

All of those kinds of transactions are voluntary with anonymous alternatives except for flying. This will become a scanable thing because if it doesn't it won't be a workable system.

BTW I'm opposed to scanning for flying too. No fly lists are an example that came out of this practice. They'll do the same with this new system - no go lists for those with a low enough social credit score.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#644

Post by [deleted] »

some_hacker33 wrote: post #310
AndrewBissell wrote: post #45

Fond memories of the days this was the sole domain of paranoid conspiracy theorists. Now, at the exact same moment that we are getting evidence of the mRNA vaccines' rapidly waning efficacy[1] and ineffectiveness at reducing transmission of the Delta variant, the screws are being tightened and the unvaccinated are being scapegoated. Never mind that this variant arose in India where there was never any possibility of…

Got a better source? This website contains misinformation. https://swprs.org/face-masks-evidence/ > E) The facemask aerosol issue > In the following video, Dr. Theodore Noel explains the facemask aerosol issue. https://factcheck.afp.com/doctor-expired-license-falsely-cla... https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/feb/08/facebook-p... the fact that we have accounts on here with large amounts of reputation reposting…

[deleted]

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#645

Post by SergeAx »

paraph1n wrote: post #583
SergeAx wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotal case: I got covid this January, quite symptomatic, full anosmia, high fever and about 20% of lungs damaged. Since then I contacted freshly infected people at least twice. Both of them became sick 1-2 days after contact, one with proved Delta variant. In both cases I self-quarantined and get mild symptoms for 2-3 days: light fever, partial anosmia. Both time I got significant increase of IgG antibodies. So I…

> or get a better immunity than any vaccine can offer. Better immunity? Almost no one who is fully vaccinated has ever died from COVID-19. It's hard to imagine better immunity than that. > society should allow it because those people will either die on they own knowledge, or get a better immunity than any vaccine can offer. Or they will serve as a mutation vector for the next, more transmissible, deadlier variant. I…

Yes, almost no one who is fully vaccinated ever died from COVID. But those who underwent a real COVID rarely ever reinfected again, set aside suffering even mild symptoms. There are literally lower thousands reinfection cases in the world (0.5% by PCR research in Denmark), while infection cases among fully vaccinated are ordinary, especially with Delta variant.

> Or they will serve as a mutation vector for the next, more transmissible, deadlier variant.

Unfortunately, hosts with partial immunity (natural asymptomatic cases or half-vaccinated) are more suitable environment for virus mutation. In tabula rasa host virus just takes over the system by storm, all mutations are in equal conditions. Weak immunity means new mutations are having an advantage and natural selection completes the case.

And now we know that even fully vaccinated people are relatively easily contracting Delta variant. You may draw the conclusion.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#646

Post by sokoloff »

afavour wrote: post #163
sokoloff wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could a family under 12 possibly know that everyone inside a restaurant is vaccinated unless the restaurant only allows a single party to have a member under 12?

Sure, other kids are a risk, as they always are. Everything is a risk evaluation, even with a vaccine mandate if the restaurant has two kids at every table with little space between them then it might not be a good idea to go in. Doesn't invalidate the fact that it would be better if all the adults are vaccinated.

Sure, but it seems at least a little unreasonable (at least disingenuous) to me to argue that “I want to be able to take unvaccinated members in my party into a restaurant confident that the other people in the establishment are proven to be vaccinated because it's dangerous if unvaccinated people gather in a public, indoor establishment.”

If unvax’d people represent such a risk to others in your judgment, you should not be part of putting unvax’d people in your own party into that situation.

(For context, I’m pro-vax, got vax’d literally the first day I was eligible, and have a kid under 12 that I can hardly wait until they’re eligible. I’m against any vax passport scheme that even theoretically allows tracking/correlation of my identity/location if shown to a party intent on tracking me.)

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#647

Post by atomashpolskiy »

tootie wrote: post #336
srcreigh wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the harm in letting unvaccinated people spread covid amongst themselves? Vaccinated people aren't at risk. Unvaccinated people know the risks and they've had plenty of time to be vaccinated. It's not illegal to decide to do $XYZ_DANGEROUS_ACTIVITY, why should it be illegal to be exposed to covid? The only concern in theory is that a vaccine-immune covid variant could develop amongst unvaccinated populations. I…

I see this opinion a lot and I think we can title LTFD or Let Them F** Die. Aside from the practical concerns about hospital crowding and the spread of potential breakthrough cases, I think it's also shamefully sadistic and punitive. I strongly disagree with anyone who is hesitant about getting vaccinated, but I still feel obligated to protect them as human beings and not just abandon their safety even if they don't…

> I strongly disagree with anyone who is hesitant about getting vaccinated, but I still feel obligated to protect them as human beings and not just abandon their safety even if they don't want to protect themselves.

> I still feel obligated to protect them

Seems like all troubled folks are loose now with this crap.

How about getting yourself a pet?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#648

Post by jcadam »

Ok here's one poll on vaccine mandates:

https://www.thetrafalgargroup.org/news/nat-issues-vaccines-0...

If we believe these results, vaccine mandates are about as unpopular as TARP was back in 2008 (opposition to which was largely responsible for the "Tea Party" movement). You can expect even stronger opposition to vaccine mandates - because this issue is far more personal.

Bring on the downvotes.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#649

Post by caeril »

notJim wrote: post #595
caeril wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you might be opposed to this policy if: { 1...2...3 } You listed three reasons that people might be opposed to the vaccine itself , not merely the policy. None of these are applicable to my particular group, of which there are many: 4. You are pro-vaccine and anti-covid, but strictly opposed to insane and tyrannical government overreach by the very same people who literally murdered tens of thousands of elderly nur…

This emotionally charged language isn't helpful to a rational discussion. I think your comment would be stronger without it. > I am fully vaccinated, but the research is clear - I can carry an infection just as effectively in my nasal cavity as my antivax cousin. Showing my card at the door does PRECISELY NOTHING to prevent spread. I'm pretty sure this is untrue, but not positive. The communication has been very conf…

> This would obviously be far far more invasive than getting two shots.

This is not prima facie evident, at all. For many people, being rationed to 1500kcal per day would be much less invasive than a foreign substance being forcibly injected into your body. Annoying and restrictive, yes, but definitely not invasive.

Further, if we accept the premise (I don't) that governments can mandate any and all measures to ensure public health, why not measures that we know for a fact WILL result in improvements? The effects of COVID on the obese are absolutely DEVASTATING compared to normal weight people. Calorie rationing would have definitely saved lives, just assuredly as if the silly mask mandates around the country specified actually effective masking with N95-P100 filtration instead of accepting virtually useless cloth as good enough.

But that's not what we do, is it? We have the worst of both worlds: we have (1) governments violating our rights in the name of public health with mandates that (2) are pure, useless, ineffective theater.

We shouldn't be mandating anything at the cost of freedom, but if we DO, we should at least make it count with mandates that WORK.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#650

Post by gatgeagent »

RaketenStadt wrote: post #210
gr1zzlybe4r wrote: post #137

This is the point where we have to stop making trade offs of choice and liberty in the name of "security". Give the public open data about the effectiveness of the vaccine and then let people make their own decisions about what to do. The moralization and judgement about the vaccine has become ludicrous. If you're scared to do things around others even if you're vaccinated, then that's fine. We cannot accept a societ…

> Give the public open data about the effectiveness of the vaccine and done: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home > then let people make their own decisions about what to do As we see, they go to crowded places, unvaccinated, and spread the virus. I think that's irresponsible. Is that "ludicrous moralization and judgement?"

To be fair, vaccinated people also spread the virus.
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