Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk • Hacker News Board

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#241

Post by nicoburns » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #201

Overton-Window wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are misleading as they include hundreds of thousands of unsheltered refugees. Anyone who has ever walked around SF or LA and Berlin knows this implicitly. The US cooks the books. https://www.feantsaresearch.org/download/germany241169298614...

>Anyone who has ever walked around SF or LA and Berlin knows this implicitly. The easy explanation for that is the social programs that care for the homeless are stronger in Germany. You don't see Berlin's homeless as a problem because they don't have to result to literally sleeping on the street. The people living in shelters are no less homeless, they just aren't as visible.

If you're living in a shelter then you're not just less visble, you're also much better off. Obviously it's a problem to be solved too, but a less severe one than people who are literally living on the street.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#242

Post by quacked » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

thinkcontext wrote: post #62

the_optimist wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very few people want to “throw out” homeless people. The reductionist vitriol is common, but unhelpful for a productive discussion.

Really? I'd say a large percentage of people would want that if an encampment appeared next to their house. In fact, that's probably the reason the homeless were living by a freeway. Anywhere near where people live would see them hassled by police or exposed to violence and harassment.

It would see them exposed to violence and harassment?

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#243

Post by slimsag » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

foxpurple wrote: post #175

legitster wrote: post #109

This is becoming such a frustrating issue. As an advocate of public spaces and parks, it's kind of heartbreaking that maybe 1/3 of public spaces in our town are no longer usable for all - they have more or less become private spaces for the homeless. I don't have much respect for communities that solve the issue by just "kicking them out" and passing the problem onto others, but it is almost becoming unacceptably com…

IMO the city should provide enough homeless shelters for everyone and then just make homelessness illegal. So if you are found sleeping in a tent you get referred to the nearest shelter and if you refuse you get arrested. We can not allow homelessness to exist because it makes public spaces unsafe like you mention. Homeless shelters can also help by making it hard for them to continue their drug addictions.

Homelessness is already illegal in most places. They are already often referred to the nearest shelter. They are already frequently arrested.

Homeless shelter's don't help, they're ridiculously dangerous to be in.

You need to do more research on the topic. VICE has some decent documentaries on the issue.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#244

Post by parineum » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

cduzz wrote: post #100

pineconewarrior wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, that job may not offer the person any net quality-of-life improvements. Flipping that burger for 30 hours a week does not give them enough money to find housing. Now they're still broke but they're also tired, smelly, and angry.

How do you cash a paycheck if you are without an address or a bank account? How do you establish that you are a citizen and are legally able to take a job if you are unable to safely store your documents? How do you get health care, inclusive of mental health care, if you are unable to pay for it? If you are without a secure residence, how do you know when to wake up, how do you clean up, put on fresh clothing, and g…

>How do you cash a paycheck if you are without an address or a bank account?

You simply sign the back and take it to the bank and they will give you cash.

>How do you establish that you are a citizen and are legally able to take a job if you are unable to safely store your documents?

I honestly have no idea.

>How do you get health care, inclusive of mental health care, if you are unable to pay for it?

The answer is to get a job which is an obvious catch 22.

>If you are without a secure residence, how do you know when to wake up, how do you clean up, put on fresh clothing, and get to work?

I think there are a variety of viable answers here ranging from family, church, charity, shelters and gyms that this is a challenge but not insurmountable for a motivated individual.

> If you rely on public transit, how do you reliably get to work?

By using public transit? I don't understand the question.

> How do you establish residence if you have no reasonable credit or references?

This is a huge issue, imo. The only real option is paying in advance but that is obviously much more difficult.

> How do you save your deposit, first month's rent, and last month's rent, if you are unable to even get a bank account?

The answer is cash but the next question is how does a homeless person keep thousands of dollars in cash safe.

I think you've gone out of your way to add solvable problems to your list to make the issue seem insurmountable but you've definitely included two issues which I think are massive and one that's less difficult but also easily solved.

Starting with the solvable problem, banking, add basic banking services to post offices. It makes a lot of sense, imo.

The healthcare problem is a big one and I think the most popular answer to that question would be socialized medicine, which I support, but I'd also be open to hearing other solutions.

The biggest problem, I think, is housing. Not just because of cost but, as you mentioned, credit and rental history are going to be a major problem. Perhaps some sort of temporary (but long term enough to allow a history of payments to be shown, like 12 months or so) housing that could be offered to those in need to get back on their feet. Possibly even a requirement that apartment buildings make a unit available for this kind of renter.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#245

Post by nradov » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

baby wrote: post #150

chrisseaton wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First please note that America has fewer homeless people than many European nations or Canada Wow that's a real reality check right there. I would have never guessed that Sweden had 2x the homeless of the US. Thank you.

Same with France. Lived there for most of my life and the US is a culture shock when it comes to homelessness. I’m confused by these numbers.

There have long been migrant camps around Calais filled with people trying to reach the UK. I don't know if they've ever been accurately counted.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-calais-id...

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#246

Post by Overton-Window » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #201

Overton-Window wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are misleading as they include hundreds of thousands of unsheltered refugees. Anyone who has ever walked around SF or LA and Berlin knows this implicitly. The US cooks the books. https://www.feantsaresearch.org/download/germany241169298614...

>Anyone who has ever walked around SF or LA and Berlin knows this implicitly. The easy explanation for that is the social programs that care for the homeless are stronger in Germany. You don't see Berlin's homeless as a problem because they don't have to result to literally sleeping on the street. The people living in shelters are no less homeless, they just aren't as visible.

Although social programs are better in Germany, that isn't the entire story. You'll see thousands of homeless strewn through the parks and along the banks of the Spree in the summer and U-Bahn stations in the winter. The major difference is the authorities dismantle and move any tent cities before they become endemic, unlike California. Belligerent behaviour is usually dealt with, meaning those that remain on the streets are predominantly harmless.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#247

Post by throwhomeee » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

dyingkneepad wrote: post #23

As a non-American person living in the US, I fail to understand one thing about its society. When I walk around town I see tons and tons of places advertising jobs, for simple stuff like kitchen, moving stuff around, etc. I even recently saw a store with a "talk to the manager and start working right now" sign. And then I walk around the streets and see all these homeless. It seems like a paradox to me, but I am obvi…

Nobody wants to admit this, but probably more so here on HN and specially those who will downvote this reply to oblivion and have 10k+ karma points. They will find any excuse to sidestep this as a legitimate issue, here are some to watch out for: a. other countries have a worse homeless problem b. it's because we closed mental health institutions in the 80s c. I was homeless you don't know what you're talking about d. war on drugs is the cause e. you shouldn't judge others maybe they chose this... the list goes on and on and I'm not going to respond to any of them here, just something to be on the look out for when this topic comes up. In the US people don't find the same solidarity with their fellow citizens unless you belong to the same club or same sociopolitical spectrum you basically think you're better than everyone else and there is a deep rooted superiority complex among people here. This is in stark contrast to countries even in Europe including Italy and others where there is a strong sense of community and for example Italianess that supersedes petty political and idealogical beliefs that many in the US cling to almost religiously.

I don't think Americans want to admit this specially the closer to the coastal cities you get the less sense of solidarity with fellow citizens and belongingness prevails rather than more community driven even religious South.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#248

Post by coding123 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:09 PM UTC

simonsarris wrote: post #75

dyingkneepad wrote: post #23

As a non-American person living in the US, I fail to understand one thing about its society. When I walk around town I see tons and tons of places advertising jobs, for simple stuff like kitchen, moving stuff around, etc. I even recently saw a store with a "talk to the manager and start working right now" sign. And then I walk around the streets and see all these homeless. It seems like a paradox to me, but I am obvi…

First please note that America has fewer homeless people than many European nations or Canada. Per 10K: Germany......79 UK...........46 Sweden.......36 Canada.......36 Netherlands..23 France.......21 USA..........17 (via Wikipedia, stats for differing years unfortunately but gives a sense of magnitude) It's mostly that the US homeless population concentrates in very few areas. > How do you reconcile that with the fac…

One thing that people should consider is that CA, specifically has a massive homelessness problem. the worse in the US.

https://www.usich.gov/tools-for-action/map/#fn[]=1300&fn[]=2...

No one really knows why, but the probable reason is a mix of people moving their while already homeless and that housing prices in CA are the worst in the country.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#249

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:09 PM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #93

SrslyJosh wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck getting and keeping a job when you have nowhere to shower and may be forced to relocate at any time. Oh, and the cops may come and smash or steal all of your belongings.

Gym memberships can be had for $20/month or less, and provide a full bathroom facility for showering and grooming. I'm not trying to be pedantic. I'm just pointing this out for anybody reading this who may find themself in a situation like this in the future.

[deleted]

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#250

Post by nine_k » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:09 PM UTC

Overton-Window wrote: post #178

fabian2k wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure those stats are right? It does not seem plausible to me that Germany has 4-5 times as many homeless as the US. I looked a bit, and the numbers really don't match my expectations, I'm pretty sure they're not counting the same things. I found one paper that compares the US and Germany and they got a lifetime prevalence of homelesness of 6.2% in the US and 2.4% in Germany ( https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.or…

They are misleading as they include hundreds of thousands of unsheltered refugees. Anyone who has ever walked around SF or LA and Berlin knows this implicitly. The US cooks the books. https://www.feantsaresearch.org/download/germany241169298614...

Neither LA nor SF nor even Washington, DC are representative of the US in this regard. Say, NYC does have homeless people, but you'll have hard time finding a tent camp with them. In many smaller towns they may be basically unheard of.

It takes a certain legal regime, law enforcement regime, economic situation, climate, etc to make a place attractive to the homeless. I suppose that neither Vermont nor Texas have a lot of homeless people.

I also heard of the practice of buying a Greyhound bus ticket to the homeless and luring them to go to warmer, more abundant places, thus physically removing the problem.

Also it's usually noted that many US homeless would be in a mental institution elsewhere; they are not homeless by conscious choice to be anti-social.