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NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#451

Post by sobellian »

gr1zzlybe4r wrote: post #137

This is the point where we have to stop making trade offs of choice and liberty in the name of "security". Give the public open data about the effectiveness of the vaccine and then let people make their own decisions about what to do. The moralization and judgement about the vaccine has become ludicrous. If you're scared to do things around others even if you're vaccinated, then that's fine. We cannot accept a societ…

I'm not scared for myself, I'm scared for people on anti-rejection medicine (for example) who have taken vaccines but still can't produce the necessary antibodies. These people have to contend with their fellow man deciding against all rational thought to become a potential walking plague vessel.

It is as if some subset of humanity decided to start driving their cars blindfolded and the internet commentariat proclaimed, "their car, their choice! Spare us your ludicrous moralization and judgement!"

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#452

Post by colinmhayes »

NonContro wrote: post #328
stickfigure wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Residents of the US have self-selected into two cohorts: 1) People that will get resistance via vaccines 2) People that will get resistance via infection Some 30-40% of the US population decided on #2. Roughly 0.7% of them will die because of that decision, but this is exactly what they are asking for ! If you are in cohort #1, you really don't have a lot to worry about from the virus. Why are you denying people the…

You're ignoring that a significant portion of #2 have already got resistance via infection. There is no point whatsoever for those people to get vaccinated, apart from padding out the pockets of Big Pharma. With the scale of vaccinations that we already have, COVID is firmly in the realm of influenza in terms of potential future deathtoll. In fact, for much of this year the UK had higher influenza deaths than COVID d…

>There is no point whatsoever for those people to get vaccinated

False, the vaccine is more effective than antibodies from a previous infection. It's not a huge difference, but it is absolutely statistically significant.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#453

Post by busymom0 »

ysavir wrote: post #410
SirensOfTitan wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Alec Karakatsanis's excellent Usual Cruelty on plea bargains: > “the Constitution requires that every guilty plea waiving the constitutional right to trial by a jury of one’s peers be knowing, intelligent, and voluntary.69 But no one who works in the criminal system thinks that contemporary plea bargaining produces voluntary agreements. The vast majority of plea bargains are accepted by people who are told that…

> I also do respect their rights to judge the information available for themselves without severely restricting their ability to live their lives. Can you expand on how being required to dine outside instead of dining inside is a severe restriction on someone's ability to live their life?

Minority communities have the lowest vaccination rates. They were also discriminated against in the past. Your argument is same as justifying segregation by saying "how being required to dine separately from another race is a severe restriction on someone's ability to live their life?"

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#454

Post by nradov »

rubicon33 wrote: post #423
desine wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the ultimate goal is saving lives, how much of your daily life are you willing to sacrifice for public health? Willing to forego car ownership? End two day shipping speeds for non essential purchases?

I don't think the ultimate goal should be saving lives. It should be avoiding the spread of COVID. Saving lives would just be a side effect of lower COVID cases (and vaccination). I'm all for re-opening businesses and promoting vaccinations. We have to get back to living our lives. I'm just tired of the idea people seem to have that it's entirely about lives.

Since SARS-CoV-2 is now endemic in the worldwide human population plus some animal species it's impossible to avoid the spread. We can slow the spread to a limited extent but eventually all of us will be exposed.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#455

Post by cwkoss »

CabSauce wrote: post #167

I'm pretty tired of all this. If folks want don't want to get the vaccine, under the argument of personal responsibility, let them do what they want. However, if they willingly or negligently transmit covid, they should be civilly and maybe criminally liable. If they end up needing medical care, make them pay for it out of their pocket. Make them financially responsible for their decisions.

> they should be civilly and maybe criminally liable

They should. But, how could this be enforced without even-more-draconian measures?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#456

Post by yupper32 »

SirensOfTitan wrote: post #39

To preface: I got the vaccine months ago (as soon as I had access), I'm a big believer in vaccines. With that being said, this policy doesn't sit well with me. None of the currently available vaccines in the US are FDA approved. Of course, a lot of people have received those vaccines, but I also don't necessarily fault individuals for feeling hesitant (the nuance here is that I think people ought to get the vaccine).…

You lose all credibility when you bring up the Biden/Harris comments.

At the time we were at the point where it was a real possibility that Trump would push out the vaccine regardless of the status of trials, etc. Trump kept saying dates and deadlines for all sorts of things throughout the pandemic that had no basis in reality, to the point that pushing out the vaccine early was a real possibility, just to make him look better.

THAT is what the Biden/Harris comments are referencing.

Could they have been more clear? Absolutely. But I'm confident that you personally know the difference and that you're just deciding to peddle that bullshit to further whatever right wing agenda you have.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#457

Post by thehappypm »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #214
recursive4 wrote: post #36

An alternative, market-powered fix: lift the regulatory statues that prevent insurance companies from raising the cost of coverage of their unvaccinated customers.

400 people died of Covid...out of 350 million yesterday. How much do you think the actuaries would increase insurance cost for numbers like that? Doesn't seem like that's a huge risk increase. And 90% of those are in the above 75 years old age group with the highest maximum risk calculated in already. I bet there's not a single actuary that is worried about Covid.

COVID is still currently a major cause of death, so there's that.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#458

Post by [deleted] »

SirensOfTitan wrote: post #89
ysavir wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If the vaccine is as effective as it seems, then this decision feels positively nanny state to me. It takes away an individual's agency to inform themselves of the risks on both sides and make an informed decision If this were mandating that every resident of NYC must be vaccinated, I would agree. But it's not doing that. It's only saying that anyone wanting to dine (or possibly shop, too) indoors, that is, in space…

From Alec Karakatsanis's excellent Usual Cruelty on plea bargains: > “the Constitution requires that every guilty plea waiving the constitutional right to trial by a jury of one’s peers be knowing, intelligent, and voluntary.69 But no one who works in the criminal system thinks that contemporary plea bargaining produces voluntary agreements. The vast majority of plea bargains are accepted by people who are told that…

[deleted]

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#459

Post by eruleman »

NonContro wrote: post #286
heavyset_go wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For instance lots of people already had covid (particularly in NYC) According to NYC.gov[1], there have been about 980k cases of COVID in a city with a population of over 8 million. About 12% of the population has had COVID. [1] https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data-totals.pag...

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7... Seroprevalence has been measured at 74% for Ultra-Orthodox Jewish populations in the UK. Its not a surprise that ethnic and religious minorities are anti-vaxx - many of them already had COVID. I'm anti-mandatory vaccinations for the same reason, as a COVID survivor. All the evidence is showing that this natural immunity is superior to vaccines, but I'm t…

That's because seroprevalence isn't as legible to the state as vaccination is.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#460

Post by busymom0 »

threatofrain wrote: post #353
mrfusion wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one thing those are policies that were carefully developed over decades not in a few weeks in the middle of a mass panic. Also those policies usually have religious and medical exemptions.

Does cautious science make the state less of a nanny? Isn't the critique of nanny state about whether the state is acting like a parent, knowing what's good for you?

People who have already gotten covid infection are extremely unlikely to get it again and some reports are saying that they have stronger immunity than vaccinated ones. This is not the case for things like polio. Plus based on Israel, the vaccine is also losing efficacy after 3-6 months so they are giving a 3rd shot now. That's not the case with polio vaccines.
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