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NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#271

Post by _-david-_ »

closeparen wrote: post #135
tboyd47 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Requiring people to consume a medical product, especially one that has not been subject to the full FDA approval process, just to live their normal lives is morally wrong. They are making people into test subjects for a multinational corporation. It doesn't matter if we already do this to an extent with other vaccines; nothing in the past has ever come close to this. It doesn't matter if you think the vaccine is more…

Requiring me to consume a novel virus in order to live my life is morally wrong. You're making me into a test subject for the bats. The whole point of civil society is to solve coordination problems and deliver public goods like sanitation and health. If it can't accomplish something as basic as vaccination then it is blatantly unfit for purpose. Absolutely, jettison it! The truly crazy idea here is that we would ret…

I assume you are for mandatory vaccine of every communicable disease right? Every person should be required to have ebola, flu and every other vaccine before they go to a bar. If you do not support this then you believe in letting viruses circulate in the bars.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#272

Post by cm2187 »

heavyset_go wrote: post #260
cm2187 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the only reasons people wouldn't want to take the vaccine. For instance lots of people already had covid (particularly in NYC), and developed a natural immunity, which from the low reinfection rate, seems to be rock solid. It doesn't make a lot of sense to require that population to take a vaccine. As for the vaccine being more or less dangerous than the virus, I think for any population over 40 or in poor…

> For instance lots of people already had covid (particularly in NYC) According to NYC.gov[1], there have been about 980k cases of COVID in a city with a population of over 8 million. About 12% of the population has had COVID. [1] https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data-totals.pag...

That's cases. There was hardly any testing during the first wave, which hit NY particularly. The numbers are likely significantly higher.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#273

Post by bob33212 »

rubyist5eva wrote: post #200
bob33212 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this any different than requiring people to wear shoes in specific locations? Some people prefer not to wear shoes, but for the legal liability and the risk of injury many locations require shoes. Don't go to those places if you feel strongly about not getting the vaccine or wearing shoes

You can't honestly see the difference between an easily visible piece of clothing versus medical data that many people consider private between them and their physician(s)? There is zero chance this is a good faith argument.

Obviously I can see shoes on people's feet easier than I can see antibodies inside someone. But the point isn't how I find out if you are wearing shoes or not. The point is that someone is telling you that you have to do something to your body. Putting on shoes and getting a vaccine are both actions that you may want to decide to do on your own and not have someone else tell you that you have to do.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#274

Post by [deleted] »

gizmo wrote: post #30
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

It's simple. If you're vaccinated you shouldn't care whether other people in the restaurant are. That's the point of vaccination after all. And if you're not vaccinated obviously you're not going to be in favor of this new mandate. The people who support policies like these are vaccin efficacy denialists, petty tyrants, and doomers of various sorts. And there are good reasons to not want to live in a "papers please"…

[deleted]

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#275

Post by [deleted] »

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

[deleted]

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#276

Post by orblivion »

ysavir wrote: post #47
SirensOfTitan wrote: post #39

To preface: I got the vaccine months ago (as soon as I had access), I'm a big believer in vaccines. With that being said, this policy doesn't sit well with me. None of the currently available vaccines in the US are FDA approved. Of course, a lot of people have received those vaccines, but I also don't necessarily fault individuals for feeling hesitant (the nuance here is that I think people ought to get the vaccine).…

>If the vaccine is as effective as it seems, then this decision feels positively nanny state to me. It takes away an individual's agency to inform themselves of the risks on both sides and make an informed decision If this were mandating that every resident of NYC must be vaccinated, I would agree. But it's not doing that. It's only saying that anyone wanting to dine (or possibly shop, too) indoors, that is, in space…

If you look at De Blasio's announcement of this "Key To NYC" program, the stated purpose sounds pretty clearly like trying to pressure people to get vaccinated. He gave the example of how successful it was with mandating city workers get vaccinated. Making it clear that this is to show New Yorkers that the way to participate in normal life is to be vaccinated. Sort of a "enough is enough, it's time to get vaccinated" attitude.

Maybe you think his real purpose is what you described rather than his stated purpose, but if he were hiding the ball I'd expect it in the other direction. It's rather jarring, really. But I suppose authoritarianism and paternalism are becoming more normalized these days.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#277

Post by heavyset_go »

usaar333 wrote: post #215
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate The goal is to avoid overloading the hospital system. Vaccinated people spreading the Delta variant amongst each other is not going to do that. Unvaccinated people getting sick will.

Is there evidence NYC's hospital system could be overloaded? UK just peaked ( https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/); Does NYC have significantly worse vaccine coverage in vulnerable populations or worse capacity?

> Is there evidence NYC's hospital system could be overloaded?

Yes, because exactly that happened in March and April of 2020, leading to tens of thousands of deaths. Here's your evidence[1][2][3].

[1] https://abc7ny.com/nyc-hospital-queens-coronavirus-news/6070...

[2] https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/us/brooklyn-hospital-coronavi...

[3] https://www.foxnews.com/health/nyc-hospitals-overwhelmed-by-...

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#278

Post by brummm »

908B64B197 wrote: post #193
gr1zzlybe4r wrote: post #137

This is the point where we have to stop making trade offs of choice and liberty in the name of "security". Give the public open data about the effectiveness of the vaccine and then let people make their own decisions about what to do. The moralization and judgement about the vaccine has become ludicrous. If you're scared to do things around others even if you're vaccinated, then that's fine. We cannot accept a societ…

> Give the public open data about the effectiveness of the vaccine and then let people make their own decisions about what to do. Exactly. Governments need to figure out why people aren't getting vaccinated and fix those issues.

Sadly there is no fix for stupidity.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#280

Post by JumpCrisscross »

silicon2401 wrote: post #231
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

> You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone eating takes off their mask right away? I'd rather have a mask mandate, like we did earlier. Lacking one is ridiculous because it's trivial to lie and forge a vaccine card. First they said masks wouldn't help, then they said the vaccine w…

> it's trivial to lie and forge a vaccine card

New York State has a digital vaccine tracking system and pass. Naturally, out of state people would find it easier to commit fraud.

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