One in five American men don't work: Where's the outrage? • Hacker News Board

Re: One in five American men don't work: Where's the outrage?

#81

Post by Hyena » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 8:13 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #79

Hyena wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't going to help us. The "reform the education system" model is usually an incredibly stupid idea. The issue is that you're essentially farming: you take 22 years to grow a new crop of skilled workers. In the education reform arena, what we should concentrate more on is patching workers. Most people could probably gain hackable proficiency in languages like Java or Python in 6 months or less. We need to be co…

What if it takes 20 years to grow a crop of skilled workers? Go ahead and walk down to the unemployment center, pick 20 people at random, and let me know how their Python coding is coming along six months from now. I was able to jump into programming because I was lucky enough to get a solid math & science education that nurtured whatever innate talent I had. The kind of analytical thinking it takes to do higher-leve…

Oh, I agree that this is a problem, but you have to admit that attempting to patch workers is a far better medium term solution than trying to besiege the education system for 20 years.

Re: One in five American men don't work: Where's the outrage?

#82

Post by namdnay » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 8:27 AM UTC

danenania wrote: post #56

doctoboggan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious as to why you state that government employees are not producing?

Some of them produce useful goods and services, but at a drastically lower efficiency than the private sector due to lack of competition and economic incentives (spending other people´s money). Still it´s good that someone is planning out the roads and running fire departments, even if they´re bad at it. On the other hand, the government also produces a lot of counterproductive ´services´ like war, financial meltdown…

"the government also produces [...] financial meltdowns, and software patents": Huh? Isn't that a) Banks and b) Software companies?

Re: One in five American men don't work: Where's the outrage?

#83

Post by cageface » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 8:36 AM UTC

Hyena wrote: post #81

cageface wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if it takes 20 years to grow a crop of skilled workers? Go ahead and walk down to the unemployment center, pick 20 people at random, and let me know how their Python coding is coming along six months from now. I was able to jump into programming because I was lucky enough to get a solid math & science education that nurtured whatever innate talent I had. The kind of analytical thinking it takes to do higher-leve…

Oh, I agree that this is a problem, but you have to admit that attempting to patch workers is a far better medium term solution than trying to besiege the education system for 20 years.

Sure, it doesn't have to be an either/or thing, but it's important to realize that our current problems are many years in the making and might take many years to really fix.

Re: One in five American men don't work: Where's the outrage?

#84

Post by Hyena » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 8:43 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #83

Hyena wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I agree that this is a problem, but you have to admit that attempting to patch workers is a far better medium term solution than trying to besiege the education system for 20 years.

Sure, it doesn't have to be an either/or thing, but it's important to realize that our current problems are many years in the making and might take many years to really fix.

For a simpler long term fix, we could just change how we do college admissions. For example, if we raised the entry requirements for 18 year-olds and kept the requirements re people in their mid-20s and up.

That would eliminate lots of liberal arts majors very quickly, replacing them with more technical people who are better motivated for difficult subjects. It's not an elegant solution, but it's probably easier than untangling the knot of education or somehow getting the political will to slice it in twain.

Re: One in five American men don't work: Where's the outrage?

#85

Post by tomjen3 » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 8:58 AM UTC

paulcedars wrote: post #78

danenania wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of them produce useful goods and services, but at a drastically lower efficiency than the private sector due to lack of competition and economic incentives (spending other people´s money). Still it´s good that someone is planning out the roads and running fire departments, even if they´re bad at it. On the other hand, the government also produces a lot of counterproductive ´services´ like war, financial meltdown…

I think that your position is ideological and not correct. The government provides institutions that lower risk to the rest of the economy and enable more stability and growth. Is regulatory capture a problem at some agencies? Sure. Are some departments outdated or ineffective? Sure. But it is irresponsible to look at a few cases and claim that the entire government is a problem. You want to see less government? Visi…

I have downvoted you, because strawmen attack are bad form of debate.

One can ask for less government without wanting to be ruled by a warlord.

Re: One in five American men don't work: Where's the outrage?

#86

Post by tomjen3 » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 9:03 AM UTC

ck2 wrote: post #16

So if a tool made in China cost $20 and the same kind made in USA cost $100, which one do you think people are going to buy at the hardware store (even if the one made in China lasts 1/4th as long). What if there was a tax that made the one made in China cost $70 - you think the one made in USA would have a fighting chance? I think so. It would create a whole bunch of jobs because there would be less impulse to move…

Then everything else would become way more expensive and the quality of life would decrease a lot.

Protectionism never many a country rich. Only production of goods and services that people actually want will do that. This may require people to upgrade their skills, but so be it.

Re: One in five American men don't work: Where's the outrage?

#87

Post by potatolicious » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 9:10 AM UTC

ars wrote: post #64

jlangenauer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they would buy fewer things that they actually needed, and that would probably last longer. Not an idle consideration on a planet with finite resources and an ecosystem being pushed beyond its limits.

> Or they would buy fewer things that they actually needed, and that would probably last longer. Unfortunately that's a recipe for economic disaster. > Not an idle consideration on a planet with finite resources and an ecosystem being pushed beyond its limits. Not really. The resources are effectively infinite because they are never destroyed, they only get changed into various different forms. We can keep making thi…

> "We can keep making things, then remaking them into different things basically forever."

Woah, since when?

For one thing, making things (and remaking them) takes a tremendous amount of energy, which uses fuel, of which as of yet we are still running on finite reserves (disregarding the environmental angle completely, even).

Secondly, when you chop down a tree and make it into paper, that paper may be recyclable, but never in the exact same form (there's a reason recycled paper is not used in many applications of paper). Not only that, many items that we make are not practically recyclable, or dangerously so - see: recovery of precious metals from electronics. Nigh impossibility unless you want to burn the rest of it away, spewing toxic chemicals into the atmosphere and causing skyrocketing cancer rates.

Until we have infinite, free energy and the ability to transmute matter at will, we cannot keep remaking things forever, not even close. No amount of recycling will even come close to the environmental and resource savings of simply not making something in the first place.

Re: One in five American men don't work: Where's the outrage?

#88

Post by tomjen3 » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 9:10 AM UTC

ars wrote: post #24

Hyena wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All companies need unskilled people: you train them so your business can expand. That's where global supply chain managers and database programmers came from originally--and in many cases still do--they don't fall from the clouds. The issue is that a lot of these companies are only expanding overseas, so they're not really ready to hire and train people. Much of their profits come from cutting back on their junior st…

> you train them so your business can expand That only worked when people stayed with a single employer for years. These days they would take the training and get a better job somewhere else.

What is it they say? "Better to educate your people and risk they leave than to not, and risk they stay?"

But yeah, training would be more likely if you either took a lower salary (part of your income comes in the form of training) or agreed to stay with the firm for a number of years.

Re: One in five American men don't work: Where's the outrage?

#89

Post by astrec » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 10:42 AM UTC

dschobel wrote: post #53

dools wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard this for the first time on HN the other day. I think (and certainly hope) it's illegal for potential employers in Australia to use your credit file as a factor in deciding whether or not to hire you. Not hiring people with bad credit seems to me to be patently absurd. Talk about kicking someone when they're down - as if non-payment of debt was a crime! It seems that the likely result of this for most is the d…

Not sure about hiring but I just checked my employment agreement (I'm in Oz) and my employer can definitely fire me if I declare bankruptcy: *the Company may terminate your employment without notice (no payment in lieu of notice will be paid) in any of the following circumstances: ×If you become unable to pay your debts as they become due ×If you are declared bankrupt;

Are you on a 457 visa by any chance?

Re: One in five American men don't work: Where's the outrage?

#90

Post by jlangenauer » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 11:20 AM UTC

ars wrote: post #64

jlangenauer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they would buy fewer things that they actually needed, and that would probably last longer. Not an idle consideration on a planet with finite resources and an ecosystem being pushed beyond its limits.

> Or they would buy fewer things that they actually needed, and that would probably last longer. Unfortunately that's a recipe for economic disaster. > Not an idle consideration on a planet with finite resources and an ecosystem being pushed beyond its limits. Not really. The resources are effectively infinite because they are never destroyed, they only get changed into various different forms. We can keep making thi…

The ecosystem is not anywhere near its limits? You're kidding right?

Scientific consensus for CO2 atmospheric levels to limit warming to 2 degrees C in the next century: 350ppm. Current levels: 390ppm

Massive over-fishing of ocean fish-stocks? Yep, happening right now.

And that's just two examples I can think of now.

Claiming that we're nowhere near the ecosystem's limits is naive, delusional and dangerous. The laws of nature, despite the beliefs of most economists, don't worry about what causes "economic disaster".