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NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#221

Post by krapp »

jjgreen wrote: post #207
jobigoud wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protests, not riots. And there are protests all the time whenever a controversial decision is made, it's our national sport. Another confounding factor is the very aggressive calendar set up, where due to the span between the doses not everyone has a way to be fully vaccinated before the measure is active.

And there are protests all the time whenever a controversial decision is made, it's our national sport It is an endearing habit; but to be fair, some of those protests can look a bit "riotey", what with the smoke bombs, water cannon, paramilitary cops with batons etc ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfxVY8ltyso ... to us in la perfide Albion at least, to Americans this probably all looks a bit tame.

>to Americans this probably all looks a bit tame.

Americans talk a good game when it comes to riots but if they took their rhetoric about "watering the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants" seriously every election would wind up with the Capitol looking like it did on January 6th.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#222

Post by imwillofficial »

JoshTko wrote: post #201
timr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

A high vaccination rate is most beneficial for poor and minority populations as they are by far the most exposed to the virus via work.

This seriously needs a cite. First time I've heard this claim.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#223

Post by orblivion »

afavour wrote: post #133
timr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> And literally anyone who wants a vaccine can get one. Literally not true. Kids under 12 are not able to be vaccinated, which puts a limit on the activities they and their families can do. If they're able to know that everyone inside a restaurant is vaccinated they'll be more likely to visit. > It might well lead to anger and violence (as similar moves have across Europe). Not really. There were some minor protests…

> If they're able to know that everyone inside a restaurant is vaccinated they'll be more likely to visit.

This is why I argue with some fellow libertarians on the idea of private company vaccine mandates. There's a place for it, such as this. Restaurants could differentiate this way. Different people have different needs. A government level mandate like this is insane.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#224

Post by heavyset_go »

clukic wrote: post #156
timr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

The vulnerable populations aren't vaccinated. The vaccination rate in Brooklyn for people 65+ is just a bit over 50% (51% white/54% African American). If cases keep rising I don't see any reason why hospitalizations and deaths won't follow. Unless the delta variant is less dangerous or treatments have improved tremendously. So, the options are 1)Stop indoor dining 2)Accept the public health implications or 3) Require…

> If cases keep rising I don't see any reason why hospitalizations and deaths won't follow.

They already have. Hospitalization rates have multiplied by a factor of nearly 4x from the 12,000 COVID hospitalizations in early July to the 40,000 COVID hospitalizations today in early August.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#225

Post by cletus »

In 2000, WHO declared measles "eradicated" in the United States [1]. Of course, that's no longer the case thanks to those who have decided their feelings and watching an unverified Youtube video trumps science.

Requiring vaccination is not new. As a matter of law in the US the issue was settled by the Supreme Court in Jacobson v. Massachussetts in 1905 [2]. Mandatory vaccination has been used to effectively eliminate smallpox and polio, in particular.

We've now administered billions of doses of Covid-19 vaccines. The idea that we're somehow missing side effects is quite frankly ridiculous at this point.

That idea also shows a basic misunderstanding of what's going on here. Immune system responses to something like a vaccine are actually extremely quick. This is not the same as, say, other drugs or compounds that live in the body for a long time. The body's response is known very quickly, which is why the very slight possibility of a clotting issue with AstraZeneca, for example, was identified extremely quickly.

Vaccines just aren't a personal choice. If it was, nobody would care what individuals did. The idea that someone's baseless opinions should trump public good as a matter of principle is sad, false as a matter of law and baseless as a matter of principle.

Contrary to the opinion of many (sadly) absolute selfishness isn't a virtue, it's just selfishness. And it's the latest iteration of the underlying anti-intellectualisms in the US.

What's especially disappointing, even worrying, is just how much traction these baseless ideas get from those who allegedly have a science education.

With NYC's mandate (which I support), it still doesn't mean you have to get vaccinated. It just means there are consequences if you don't. We already have this with schools. While we're at it, it's time to stop this nonsense of vaccines being against one's "personal beliefs" to get an exemption.

If you want to live in a society that benefits from mass vaccination you should be prepared to do your part, particularly when that part just means getting an extremely safe needle. If you want to opt out of that, you also opt out of the benefits of that.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles_resurgence_in_the_Unit...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#226

Post by briane80 »

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

Ivermectin has shown great promise not only treating symptons of covid (5000% reduction in viral load in one paper) but also as a prophylactic. The small studies released recently suggest up to 83% effectiveness as a prophylactic. Of course larger RCT will need done, but fat chance of that with the economic incentive for big pharma and their politcal cronies and the weird political push to get EVERYONE vaccinated.

Getting downvoted by the hive mind so here's some links to a paper and offical news sources-

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/

https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/Fulltext/2021/...

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.31.21258081v...

https://www.jpost.com/health-science/israeli-scientist-says-...

meta study - https://ivmmeta.com/

https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indian-ba...

https://www.pfizer.com/science/coronavirus/antiviral-efforts...

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#227

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

Why would you be opposed to a policy requiring everyone to jog three miles every day? Jogging is good for your health, its side effects are minor and benefits to the society in whole will be tremendous.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#228

Post by chimeracoder »

cm2187 wrote: post #175
chimeracoder wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As for the vaccine being more or less dangerous than the virus, I think for any population over 40 or in poor health, the trade off is clearly in favour of the vaccine. But if you are 20 and in good health, I am not sure it is that obvious. The risks of complications from the virus are many orders of magnitude higher than risks of complications from the vaccine, even for people in their 20s.

Whatever the numbers are, you are balancing a minuscule risk against another minuscule risk. That's not going to be a convincing argument.

> Whatever the numbers are, you are balancing a minuscule risk against another minuscule risk. That's not going to be a convincing argument.

The rate of complications from COVID-19 infections among people in their 20s is absolutely not "minuscule".

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#229

Post by textgel »

standardUser wrote: post #202
SirensOfTitan wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I clearly mentioned, this vaccine is not FDA approved. We have no idea of the long term effects. I find it fairly reasonable to not want to be a test subject.

"We have no idea of the long term effects" Perhaps you have no idea, but the people closest to this science, including the countless government agencies around the world that have given authorization, have a pretty good idea. The design and length of clinical trials is not arbitrary, but your personal idea of "long term" is arbitrary.

Just as they had a good idea that vaccinating would effectively make the virus transmissible, just as they had a good idea about masks working and not working, just as they...

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#230

Post by mrfusion »

A bit off topic but you know what’s really jarring for me?

For the past ten years I’ve agreed with the majority on hacker news on almost every issue. Software patents, voting rights, who knows what else. Everyone seemed to just find the right answer and it made sense.

Then all of a sudden I’m in tiny minority because I believe people should be able to choose what they put in their own bodies. It really feels like a twilight zone episode.

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