NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#121

Post by saxman001 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

I don't think that the city should be able to impose this arduous constraint on private businesses. These businesses have already suffered greatly under the capacity restrictions of closures. Now they're being asked to turn away potential customers and enforce unpopular rules without compensation, under threat of substantial penalties.

If the city wants to impose this rule, then at the very least they should handle the enforcement. Outsourcing the mandate without compensation is absurd.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#122

Post by DamnYuppie » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

minikites wrote: post #105

ryandrake wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a family member who, despite acknowledging that seat belts work and save lives, refuses to wear his seat belt purely out of petty spite "because I'm not gonna let the tyrannical government tell me what to do!" This endless conversation about vaccines is feeling more and more like that. Orthodox Individualism has become a religion.

>Orthodox Individualism has become a religion. Over the last 40-some years, Conservatives and Republicans have been incredibly successful at destroying the idea of government which is effective and serves the public. The result is that oppositional defiance and grievance politics are all we have left.

Over the past 40 years elected officials have done a great job of passing legislation that shows they are incompetent, corrupt, and have no ones best interested except their own and will use any excuse to increase their control over people.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#123

Post by trutannus » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

polote wrote: post #25

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

This measure can't be a way to create "zero covid spaces" because people who are vaccinated can still transmit the virus (even though less than unvaccinated people, but it doesnt seem to be a 90% reduction either). So the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate. It seems pretty weird to ask the indoor business owners to be the ones who are in charge of controlling that the vaccination rate is increasing and to…

> It seems pretty weird to ask the indoor business owners to be the ones who are in charge of controlling that the vaccination rate is increasing and to be the one who are punished because the vaccination rate is not high enough.

So far the data coming out of the EU has indicated that when passports and certificates were introduced, there was an uptick in vaccination the day the measure was introduced. Estonia, for instance, has seen this happen.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#124

Post by Alex3917 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

polote wrote: post #25

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

This measure can't be a way to create "zero covid spaces" because people who are vaccinated can still transmit the virus (even though less than unvaccinated people, but it doesnt seem to be a 90% reduction either). So the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate. It seems pretty weird to ask the indoor business owners to be the ones who are in charge of controlling that the vaccination rate is increasing and to…

> It seems pretty weird to ask the indoor business owners to be the ones who are in charge of controlling that the vaccination rate is increasing and to be the one who are punished because the vaccination rate is not high enough.

If their businesses are spreading the disease then it seems entirely reasonable.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#125

Post by corey_moncure » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:42 PM UTC

mthoms wrote: post #54

tboyd47 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Requiring people to consume a medical product, especially one that has not been subject to the full FDA approval process, just to live their normal lives is morally wrong. They are making people into test subjects for a multinational corporation. It doesn't matter if we already do this to an extent with other vaccines; nothing in the past has ever come close to this. It doesn't matter if you think the vaccine is more…

Your rights end when exercising them endangers my life and the lives of my family. That’s also a basic tenet of civil society (see traffic laws for example).

My body, my choice only applies when we're talking about terminating the lives of unborn children, right?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#126

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:42 PM UTC

DamnYuppie wrote: post #122

minikites wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Orthodox Individualism has become a religion. Over the last 40-some years, Conservatives and Republicans have been incredibly successful at destroying the idea of government which is effective and serves the public. The result is that oppositional defiance and grievance politics are all we have left.

Over the past 40 years elected officials have done a great job of passing legislation that shows they are incompetent, corrupt, and have no ones best interested except their own and will use any excuse to increase their control over people.

[deleted]

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#127

Post by afavour » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:42 PM UTC

potiuper wrote: post #28

Kids cannot get the vaccine. So, are they all banned?

No, the article states they are not.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#128

Post by afavour » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:43 PM UTC

quaffapint wrote: post #96

I feel for the people that had covid and now they are being lumped in with the unvaccinated if they choose not to get the shot on top of that.

I've seen this objection a few times and I'm really not sure why anyone that had COVID would be all that fussed about getting the shot. We don't know how long antibodies from having already contracted it last for, so why not get the vaccine?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#129

Post by timr » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:43 PM UTC

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all.

I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lead to anger and violence (as similar moves have across Europe).

These are my opinions, but I think the strongest arguments against it are facts: if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2. And literally anyone who wants a vaccine can get one. Those who choose not to get vaccinated are making a risk calculation; they are making a choice.

This policy comes from an almost hysterical fixation on "cases", which are not a metric of any meaning. SARS-CoV2 is not going away. We should be reacting rationally to rates of hospitalization and deaths -- and right now, those are barely changed in NYC, thanks to the very high vaccination rate amongst the vulnerable population:

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data-trends.pag...

One can certainly argue that there exist small groups of people for whom the vaccine is not perfect protection. This is true, but it's no different than all other viruses, which have threatened immunocompromised people forever. We have never before justified such intrusive government policies based on the risks faced by these individuals. So while I empathize with them, this still seems like over-reach to me.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#130

Post by muaytimbo » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #71

AndrewBissell wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you drawing a comparison between requiring vaccinations (with 30+ year safety records) against measles and polio, for children to attend public school, with requiring vaccinations (with no long-term safety data whatsoever) against Covid for people to go to public establishments? Did you ever need proof of a polio vaccine to get into Equinox?

Hi! Thanks for asking! I very much am drawing that comparison, because there is literally no--and I mean that, literally no --evidence from a credible source to suggest that the possibility exists in terms of actual pathways to a long-term problem. Should that evidence be forthcoming from sources with a credible tether to reality, I will re-evaluate my position, but unlike so many of the fearful types who insist one…

Actually there already have been previously undocumented side effects with the new vaccines, heart inflammation with the mRNA vaccines and blood clotting with a couple of the others. These were the short term side effects that weren't caught during the safety trials. We have zero data about long term side effects.

While I can't give you an "actual pathway to a long-term problem" by which I assume you mean a mechanism of action I will note science is hard, scientists can't always predict what will happen, and serendipitous discoveries happen daily. The long term risk is unknown. I think if you're at risk for serious infection you should get vaccinated, if you're not really at risk it's more difficult to weigh the relative risks.