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The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

leidenmedievalistsblog.nl

81–90 of 246 posts

Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#81

City builders, such as Sim City or even City Skylines are all inaccurate to various degrees. I find it more "honest" when Tropico 6 makes fun of the concept entirely: with your hackers stealing the White House from the US Government. Strangely enough, I find Tropico to be a more believable setting. * Citizen simulation: Citizens need to travel between different areas. Miners need to enter the mines, but when they get…

I think Tropico really cuts a balance in scale/scope that hits the perfect sweet spot for me. I also think the thematic elements are inherently more interesting than most other city builders. The bigger the scale, the more you have to abstract, so in Cities Skylines or large-scale city builders you literally don't have to or need to care about any individuals, nor is there much in the way of meaningful simulation of them. Skylines ultimately devolves into traffic management, since that ends up being the (perhaps realistic) breaking point when you build a large city.

Tropico manages to keep the maps at a scale that they really do build out and look like a city, but the citizens/agents are still represented in a way that makes them matter individually in some cases. The way tourism works as a means to base the economy on is also something pretty unique to Tropico, largely down to the thematic elements.

One thing that really bothers me about a lot of city builders (The Anno games are where this really stuck out to me but a lot of them do this) is the strict adherence to a fixed radius of influence for certain types of buildings. It makes the games feel like a puzzle to be optimized instead of an enjoyable construction set to build a city. It also doesn't make that much sense. If there is only one church in town and you're one house too far away from it, you're probably not going to decide that you won't go to church, right?

I really hope we get more city builders in the near future that allow less rigidly structured building. While you don't have to adhere to a strict grid in most city-builders, you are often giving up so much space that it both doesn't look very nice or sensible since everything that does fill in around the edges is still trying to smash itself in to a grid.

Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#82
post #13

I always thought city builders are a weird mix of sort of free market / authoritarian beliefs: In most city builder games involve some planning, incentives provided, and people just show up, do their thing, growth is endless, build a business, and there you go. On the other hand in most city builders the player makes all the decisions and can act at will with no regard to his local citizens ;)

Can you imagine a real mayor simulator, where you'd have to get elected and answer to the city council and constituents? I expect most would find that boring, but it might be a fun (or at least educational) experience for some.

Last night, I was musing over the notion of a zoning board of appeals, where some percentage of your decisions are overridden or just plain tied up for years, and the city ends up looking like a patchwork.

Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See the the Caesar franchise (Caesar IV, 2006). You have to hire tax collectors, set taxes, and yes you also have a separate income as a governor. It does all of this.

That's cool! Does it say what exactly you are taxing (labor, land, capital, income, wealth)?, or is that left abstract?

There were times that the Romans auctioned off the right to tax a region. So you’d pay the state some sum and then have the right to extract whatever you can from the population.

I’m sure the whole story is much more nuanced than that outline.

Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Cities skylines for example has no concept of slums. That was one thing it seemed to simulate pretty well in my experience. Last time I played it, I set up the city with a bunch of low income housing areas in industrial zones, roads all through them, small housing plots next to industry and under overpasses and stuff. The neighbourhoods looked exactly like the low income housing neighbourhoods around industrial area…

Slums in Cities Skylines are useless. The only point of a "slum" in that game is to convert the slum into a richer neighborhood. In contrast: creating Slums in Ceasar, Pharaoh, or Tropico is an explicit strategy. Why? Because low-income industries (such as mining or farming) cannot afford better housing. The slum is the best that you can give that population as a leader. In Ceasar, they're extremely cheeky about the…

To be fair, almost everything in Cities felt useless. It didn't really feel like much of a game at all. Nothing you did really actually mattered at all. Cities was more like an interactive city model building toy than what I'd think of as a game.

Ceasar, Pharoh and Tropico are actual games with goals, win conditions and a point.

I didn't like Cities mostly because nothing you did mattered. Not just slums or anything else. You can kill off half the city by accidently routing waste dumping to the city's drinking water and within 15-20 minutes your city's back to being fully populated.

Trying to play Cities strategically the way you would those other games is going to be disappointing no matter how you build the city. It's just not that kind of game.

Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#85

> And finally, something that would, in my opinion, really add to the realism and historical flavor of a medieval-themed city builder would be the introduction of mechanisms in which agricultural surpluses are skimmed by the church and the feudal lord. Tithes, taxes and rents! Instead of merely abstracting the taxes into an income modifier or letting the player be the extractor himself, we could be shown the tax coll…

Europa Universalis IV has a bunch of tax stuff:

* https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Tax

There are entire Youtube tutorials on it.

Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#86

> And finally, something that would, in my opinion, really add to the realism and historical flavor of a medieval-themed city builder would be the introduction of mechanisms in which agricultural surpluses are skimmed by the church and the feudal lord. Tithes, taxes and rents! Instead of merely abstracting the taxes into an income modifier or letting the player be the extractor himself, we could be shown the tax coll…

Europa Universalis IV has a bunch of tax stuff: * https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Tax There are entire Youtube tutorials on it.

Makes sense that they also developed Stellaris. Looks like I have a new game to buy and play.

Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#87

City builders, such as Sim City or even City Skylines are all inaccurate to various degrees. I find it more "honest" when Tropico 6 makes fun of the concept entirely: with your hackers stealing the White House from the US Government. Strangely enough, I find Tropico to be a more believable setting. * Citizen simulation: Citizens need to travel between different areas. Miners need to enter the mines, but when they get…

I think Tropico really cuts a balance in scale/scope that hits the perfect sweet spot for me. I also think the thematic elements are inherently more interesting than most other city builders. The bigger the scale, the more you have to abstract, so in Cities Skylines or large-scale city builders you literally don't have to or need to care about any individuals, nor is there much in the way of meaningful simulation of…

For those unaware: Tropico sits approximately one step higher than "The Sims", and one step lower than "Sim City".

You don't have as many personalities / needs details per citizen as "The Sims". But every single citizen's life is completely simulated (home, walking, work, walking, church, walking, eating, walking, home. Yes, there's a lot of walking: you'll be thinking of transportation / infrastructure to make things better). Citizens also have full life cycles from birth, to children, to adulthood, and finally death.

A "Big" Tropico has maybe 2000 citizens. At this point, you need significant thought into transportation to keep things working (and one transportation hiccup can topple your entire economy). Tropico 6 is a bit better about it, but Tropico always "scaled poorly" at the end of simulations. (While Sim City / City Skylines felt like games you could keep watching for many months, I don't think I ever put much more than a few weeks of effort into any particular Tropico playthrough).

Tropico is more about playing, reaching the modern era, and then starting over again. Tropico has a "poor steady state", but an excellent "growth" phase that feels very natural. (Ex: setting up a Pro-Communism Newspaper in a neighborhood will slowly turn that neighborhood into pro-communists, pleasing the USSR. Seeing these trends play out over 10+ in-game years is very pleasing)

In contrast, Sim City / City Skylines feel like they "hold steady state" very well, but are kind of unrealistic from a growth perspective.

Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#89
OH MY GOD!

The FIRST game (and one I LOVE so much) that popped into my head just upon reading the post title was "Knights and Merchants" -- Played the SHIT out of that game while at Intel... All nighters and such.

Clicked the link thinking no way that game would be in here -- and its the FIRST image on the submission!

Great post.

Re: The historical accuracy of medieval city-builder video games

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europa Universalis IV has a bunch of tax stuff: * https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Tax There are entire Youtube tutorials on it.

Makes sense that they also developed Stellaris. Looks like I have a new game to buy and play.

Consider yourself warned: all Paradox games are highly addictive drugs. What you must have experienced with Stellaris is representative of most their games. EU IV is indeed a good choice if you liked Stellaris (I usually explain Stellaris to people as EU in spaaaaace).
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