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Early Retirement (2006)

philip.greenspun.com

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Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#131

Post by _k9eq »

ok2938 wrote: post #81
2sk21 wrote: post #75

I retired early recently - I am in my mid 50s. It's not anywhere as hard as people seem to think. With a disciplined approach to investing, I think that it's very much possible to reach financial independence with a typical tech salary in the US. I achieved FI without an extraordinarily high salary, stock grants or participating in an IPO. There is a treasure trove of information in the Bogleheads wiki: https://www.b…

My problem is, I'm kind of anti-capitalist, to make it short. Labor and capital and not just production factors, but they constitute a power relationship (and often a quite asymmetric one). I cannot bring myself to "invest" in something or believe that "my money works for me" - that's delusional. Money does not "work". People get all upset about the stance, but all I am saying is that everyone wants to profit off som…

Unless your opposition to capitalism is based on idealistic notions of morality, you have to accept that it is the predominant mode of production that society involuntarily finds itself in. Marx was financed by Engels, a factory owner and capitalist, and if he had refused to do so on principle, he would have probably never gotten around to write any of his theory (regardless of what one things of it).

Money disassociates social relations under capitalism. You fear wanting to pay people to work for you, but they too just work for the money. There is nothing ethical or unethical about that, it is just how the structure of capitalism influences the production and reproduction of society.

You might want to study theory or history, engage in labour actions, teach, help the needy, etc. but the system doesn't privilege anyone unconditionally. To have the opportunities to do what you find important, you need the resources: education, money and also time.

So it is up to you, to live by the standards of an ideal society or to exploit the current circumstances as best you can.

Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#132

Post by brianwawok »

_wldu wrote: post #85

Why isn't healthcare insurance more like car insurance? Almost everyone can afford to pay car insurance and are not worried about going broke and filing for bankruptcy if they have an accident or get a speeding ticket. A friend got covid, almost died and then got a large five figure medical bill. They had insurance via the employer, but the hospital ER/ICU they were transported to was out of network. How is a very si…

> Almost everyone can afford to pay car insurance and are not worried about going broke and filing for bankruptcy if they have an accident or get a speeding ticket.

Wealthy people actually buy an umbrella policy or something else to protect their wealth. Crashing into a 2 million dollar car or causing the deaths of a few people is going to put 1+ million in damages back on you. If your net worth is 50k, maybe doesn't matter. If it is 5 million, it could be life changing.

Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#133

Post by SavantIdiot »

cfeduke wrote: post #29

The greatest expense for me in retirement is now health insurance so it makes sense for me to instead work for insurance coverage and put my wealth towards an inheritance for my children. I used to naively believe once I paid off my mortgage, had a substantial retirement account and savings - a couple million dollars - I'd no longer work. It's also very difficult to get off of the treadmill of spending a lot of money…

Sounds like you're where I'll be in a few years. I figured the "treadmill of spending" would be the hardest part. At the end of every year I look at my expenses and say to myself, "Well, I wouldn't have gone out to eat twice a week and taken four vacations and bought that new mountain bike if I was retired." Every year there's about $10-20k of spending that I naively try to convince myself "I wouldn't do if I was retired" but hearing you say it makes me realize I'm full of BS.

Thanks for the reassurance. :)

I've been writing software for 40 years, for fun and profit, I'm about 100% sure I'll never stop, so like you I'd like to monetize it as long as possible.

Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#134

Post by jt2190 »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #27

And people say studying humanities is useless... Before you can even begin to approach questions like this, you have to get a lay of the land at least... read an article on philosophy and religion in the encyclopedia. These aren't new questions. They've been dissected and applied to the furthest reaches of our understanding. It's all written down and at our fingertips 24/7. They underlie the primary question in the a…

> How can [the idea that in the past that the average person did not expect to be happy] even be proposed? Maybe I just read way too into this. Is it a joke?

First off, the author continued:

> Life could be a struggle for survival with hard work and adversity at every corner. Marriages were arranged by parents and if, after 20 years, the couple hated each other, there was no option to divorce.

While I guess that particular life experience is not necessarily incompatible with happiness (“I love my life as a sustenance farmer!”) it was definitely, by modern standards, very hard, and not at all what most people strive for in their retirement.

Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#135

Post by kevinventullo »

underseacables wrote: post #96

I’m terrified of retirement. I’ve got about 30 years to go, and I’m only just now seriously thinking about saving for retirement. My two greatest fears are that I will retire and have to take a part-time job to make ends meet, or worse, there’s a health crisis that completely wiped us out financially. Our plan is to slowly develop a small real estate portfolio of rental properties to bring in secondary streams of inc…

IRA’s get you a little more tax shelter on top of the 401(k).

Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#136

Post by 300bps »

ok2938 wrote: post #81
2sk21 wrote: post #75

I retired early recently - I am in my mid 50s. It's not anywhere as hard as people seem to think. With a disciplined approach to investing, I think that it's very much possible to reach financial independence with a typical tech salary in the US. I achieved FI without an extraordinarily high salary, stock grants or participating in an IPO. There is a treasure trove of information in the Bogleheads wiki: https://www.b…

My problem is, I'm kind of anti-capitalist, to make it short. Labor and capital and not just production factors, but they constitute a power relationship (and often a quite asymmetric one). I cannot bring myself to "invest" in something or believe that "my money works for me" - that's delusional. Money does not "work". People get all upset about the stance, but all I am saying is that everyone wants to profit off som…

Imagine a community of elderly people who are physically incapable of cutting their lawn on a weekly basis.

A neighbor sees their predicament and thinks if he could only buy a lawn tractor he could help them out. But he doesn’t have the money.

So he borrows the money at 5% interest, buys the tractor and offers to cut their lawns at a low rate. He uses the money he makes from his customers to pay the payments on the tractor and even reinvests some of that to buy a truck with a plow so he can plow their driveways when it snows.

He’s happy, his customers are happy, the bank that loaned him the money is happy. It seems like putting “money to work” in this way seems like a good thing to me but maybe I’m missing something.

Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#137

Post by saiya-jin »

cyberlurker wrote: post #49
cfeduke wrote: post #29

The greatest expense for me in retirement is now health insurance so it makes sense for me to instead work for insurance coverage and put my wealth towards an inheritance for my children. I used to naively believe once I paid off my mortgage, had a substantial retirement account and savings - a couple million dollars - I'd no longer work. It's also very difficult to get off of the treadmill of spending a lot of money…

Do people in countries with universal healthcare not have this problem? What are the types of products and services that are so significant? Surely we aren’t talking about things like Netflix and utilities?

Nope. Proper healthcare costs are truly an afterthought in most if not all parts of Europe, same as public transport tickets or cafeteria budgeting. Of course this doesn't cover non-medical stuff but under normal situation one doesn't need much of that apart from good suncream (which is required anytime anyway).

I firmly believe that the problems of cashflow during retirement, outside medical costs discussed here which are very US-specific, are much more about lifestyle choices. If one desperately needs that luxury they bathed in in last 30 years and it became the base standard life, then there is tough time ahead with possibly sad outlook. We all know more humble life leads to more happy life long term at this point, so to each their own.

Why I believe this - the most awesome memories from my life is doing stuff that costs very little - long backpacking trips around the world where plane tickets there & back are maybe 50% of the cost of 1-month long adventure. Doing many awesome sports one can do in the mountains (hiking, climbing, via ferratas, ski touring, paragliding, etc.). All these need initial gear investment and then just gas costs + rare equipment replacement costs.

These activities also highly increase chances that one reaches retirement actually in good shape, and can relatively kick ass till 75-80. I expect to be highly active during 60-70 retirement, based on genetics in my family. And a bit of luck obviously, one needs that for everything.

While doing these activities, I've met tons of people who are properly age-retired. During work week (maybe outside of July&August tourist seasons), you will find that most hikers in the Alps are retirees for example.

Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#138

Post by neogodless »

justinram11 wrote: post #105

Perhaps I'm a bit naive in my mid-20's, but I actually don't think that I'd hate working 15-20 hours a week (at a low-stress company) for the rest of my life. Or at least until I was physically unable. I've recently been wondering if I should instead be trying to view life as a "sustainable marathon" rather than trying to cash out quickly (FIRE).

There's nothing particularly wrong with this mindset, but let's be explicit about your options:

1. Spend any extra money you make, knowing that you'll work 20 hours / week at least until social security arrives. If you start to hate work or having trouble finding work, you likely have very little to fall back on. Social security might not support your lifestyle, so expect a very pared back retirement late in life.

2. Spend a lot less than you make, but still spend amply to cover qualify of life and the things you enjoy and value. Invest the extra and have a cushion that covers unexpected job loss, periods of burnout, and the option to go long periods without any work at all if you have other interest you want to pursue. Be prepared for retirement now or when you're much older, but always having everything you need to cover the lifestyle you've designed.

3. Be miserable now, spending way less than you make, hating your job and hoping once you have a huge nest egg, you can make yourself happy!

Some people think early retirement is #3 but it's really #2. And many people do #1 until they start to realize they don't love being tied to a job at 40 as much as they enjoyed it at 20. (And that spending lots of money doesn't always make up for the obligation to work as well as they hoped.)

Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#139

Post by baobaba »

> Retirement forces you to stop thinking that it is your job that holds you back. For most people the depressing truth is that they aren't that organized, disciplined, or motivated.

This resonates. I took a 1-year sabbatical after 12 years in the tech industry. I kept a big text file with all the things I wanted to do once I had the time. When I finally did, I realized I only wanted to do one thing from that list (of 30+ items). The rest sounded good on paper, but I never had the motivation to do them. This was a harsh realization, but now when I think "I wish I had time to...", I know it's an illusion. We tend to make time for what we really want. Overall, it was useful to realize.

Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#140

Post by [deleted] »

justinram11 wrote: post #105

Perhaps I'm a bit naive in my mid-20's, but I actually don't think that I'd hate working 15-20 hours a week (at a low-stress company) for the rest of my life. Or at least until I was physically unable. I've recently been wondering if I should instead be trying to view life as a "sustainable marathon" rather than trying to cash out quickly (FIRE).

[deleted]
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