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Early Retirement (2006)

philip.greenspun.com

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Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#31

Post by JKCalhoun »

gfiorav wrote: post #12

I had a version of this realization early in my life. I wanted to be a musician. I thought that school and other things in life were a burden and that once I was devoted to music, I'd be happy and full. I got my dream by 18 years old. When music became my work I hated it. Made me think differently about life.

Everything that becomes work you will hate.

I think when it is no longer your job you might begin to enjoy it again?

My career turned out to be software engineering because I liked writing software as a hobby. The job does take the software-writing energy out of me. But from time to time when I have started a little project of my own I have found it to be enjoyable again.

Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#32

Post by mankyd »

awb wrote: post #3

> Retirement forces you to stop thinking that it is your job that holds you back. For most people the depressing truth is that they aren't that organized, disciplined, or motivated. Maybe, but I don’t know anyone who’s less happy being retired. They might not be living their retirement fantasy, but the pressure and stress of having to work is gone.

There is plenty of research to suggest that people go into cognitive decline after entering retirement. Whether that translated to a change in "happiness" is perhaps a different metric, but it certainly is suggestive.

https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2020/03/cognitive-de...

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/10/191029131506.h...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6153553/

Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#33

Post by mathattack »

dagw wrote: post #15
MattGaiser wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both my grandfathers have repeatedly tried to retire and within 3 weeks went back to work until in the case of one his boss changed and in the case of the other, at 77 he is still working. For many their work is very core to their identity and without it, they have little to do.

I think easing out of work is important. My dad 'retired' at 67 and instantly got hired back as a consultant on an hourly basis. He then spent the next 3 or so years slowly cutting down his hours until he was only working ~20-30% at which point he felt ready quit.

Similar. My old man went back to his old job as a consultant. It was supposed to be 20 hours a week and quickly turned into 40. Then he gradually reduced over time.

Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#34

Post by showerst »

bloaf wrote: post #18
showerst wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those numbers are pretty optimistic for expenses if you live somewhere expensive, ever plan to get into a long term relationship and/or have kids, or ever plan to make a down payment on a house. I think your tax calculation is way low too, but haven't done the math.

If you do a little algebra and make some simple assumptions, it turns out that "years of work required for retirement" is a function of your savings ratio only, that is savings/take-home pay. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...

I like MMR, but like many people in that genre these over-simplified calculations only really work for a very narrow set of circumstances.

What happens if you want to buy a condo in a competitive market that requires a 200k downpayment? Or have a medium-sized wedding? Or have two kids in day-care?

I understand that the FIRE response would be that you don't _have_ to buy into all that stuff, but saying that it's just a little algebra and some simple assumptions is fantasy unless you want to live like a single 24 year old your whole life.

Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#35

Post by UnpossibleJim »

gfiorav wrote: post #12

I had a version of this realization early in my life. I wanted to be a musician. I thought that school and other things in life were a burden and that once I was devoted to music, I'd be happy and full. I got my dream by 18 years old. When music became my work I hated it. Made me think differently about life.

I had a similar situation. I worked hard and went back to school and became a professional artist. I was paid decently, but ended up never drawing or painting for myself. I hated it. It took me close to a decade to start liking the process of creating visual arts again, and even then it was tentative.

I read something not all that long ago that I wished I had read when I was much younger. "Make something you like your career and keep your passions for yourself, if you are able."

Obviously, this doesn't work for everyone. Some people have that all consuming thing where the process of selling your passion doesn't kill the love for it, but it didn't mesh for me =/

Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#36

Post by marktangotango »

cfeduke wrote: post #29

The greatest expense for me in retirement is now health insurance so it makes sense for me to instead work for insurance coverage and put my wealth towards an inheritance for my children. I used to naively believe once I paid off my mortgage, had a substantial retirement account and savings - a couple million dollars - I'd no longer work. It's also very difficult to get off of the treadmill of spending a lot of money…

This is the reality of the situation; until you're eligible for (edit) medicare, health is a significant expense. When paired with the "hedonistic treadmill" of spending, early retirement takes a lot more investment than many suspect. Even at a safe withdrawal rate of 4%, $2M is "only" $80k a year. You're not driving around in Ferrari's and eating caviar on that (parodying a rich lifestyle here). Of course there are levels, and one could live modestly in a LCOL area on that, but that's not what most people have in mind. Particularly for a "millionaire".

Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#37

Post by defaultname »

dagw wrote: post #6
awb wrote: post #3

> Retirement forces you to stop thinking that it is your job that holds you back. For most people the depressing truth is that they aren't that organized, disciplined, or motivated. Maybe, but I don’t know anyone who’s less happy being retired. They might not be living their retirement fantasy, but the pressure and stress of having to work is gone.

Maybe, but I don’t know anyone who’s less happy being retired. I've known lots of people who spiraled into various levels of depression after retirement. It's even more likely if the retirement wasn't voluntary.

Retirement is such a loaded word because to many it means "wealthy enough to do whatever they want", whereas traditionally it meant "no longer useful to employers". In the former case we have stories of 20-somethings "retiring", the word repurposed into just a meaningless boast.

In the no longer useful to employers vein, in the working class town I grew up in there was a common observation that retirement was a harbinger of death. That when someone retired their lifestyle would quickly decline to sedentary decay, boredom medicated with alcohol (or other things). Death would quickly follow.

As an aside, tangentially there's a wonderful passage from Mark Twain in Tom Sawyer -

“Work consists of whatever a body is obliged to do. Play consists of whatever a body is not obliged to do.”

Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#38

Post by isthis129283 »

flowerlad wrote: post #2

How much money can a Silicon Valley software engineer expect to have at retirement? This article says $7 million: https://www.wealthmeta.com/blog/being-a-doctor-vs-being-a-so... Here's the back-of-the-envelope calculation: Annual salary: $250K (it is much higher at FAANG). Assume 25% tax (effective, not marginal), which leaves us with $187.5K, which is about $15K per month. Assume $5000 in monthly expenses, which lea…

You should subtract capital gains.

Unless you know of a way to put $84k/year into a roth account.

Re: Early Retirement (2006)

#40

Post by Domenic_S »

awb wrote: post #3

> Retirement forces you to stop thinking that it is your job that holds you back. For most people the depressing truth is that they aren't that organized, disciplined, or motivated. Maybe, but I don’t know anyone who’s less happy being retired. They might not be living their retirement fantasy, but the pressure and stress of having to work is gone.

I tend to believe the statement -- I don't know about the "happiness" aspect per se but regarding doing all those things you told yourself you'd do, yeah for sure. During COVID lockdown I saw hundreds of instances of a meme something along the lines of:

"I used to think I just didn't have the time for all the things I wanted to accomplish; lockdown proved that isn't true!"

Not exactly scientific, but I can relate to that.

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