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Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

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Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And truly the vast majority of employers just don't want to layoff or fire if that don't have to. I've seen far too many corporate moves that were driven by executives looking to goose the stock price to believe that. You can argue that it's the executive's job to goose the stock price, and thus they "have to" lay off people in order to avoid taking as much of a financial hit in a recession or whatever, but that just…

Layoffs to goose stock prices are not actually that common, it's also very short-sighted. In the face of a major recession, execs are not laying off to 'goose the stock' they are adjusting to the situation. Of course it does happen, but in the grand scheme of corporate development across all industries, it's not hugely common. There is a difference between 'loyalty' and 'doing a good job'. It's not expected that comp…

I'm not sure what you mean by "do a good job". I will, of course, meet the requirements of the role as they are set out before me. I will do that even if the job is crap. But if you want me to come in earlier than 08:59:59 or leave later than 17:00:00, you'd better be offering something in return.

My current employer, fortunately, does. Even before COVID, they were flexible w.r.t. work from home, and the management is more than willing to let you do your thing as long as you're delivering results. I will, and have, repaid that flexibility by going above and beyond in handling issues that weren't strictly my responsibility, working late on more than one occasion to ensure that deliverables got out the door in time.

However, I have had the misfortune for working for less understanding management. I've had management say, with a straight face in a team meeting, "If you're working from home, you ain't working." I've worked for management that openly ridiculed employees who had to take time off for family medical emergencies. You can be sure that, in those situations, I clocked out exactly when I considered my shift over.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The divorce rate for the first 5 years is less than 20% in the the US. The US has a higher divorce rate than many countries so, in general, this is untrue.

Marriage != monogamous relationships

True. But they said “divorces”, I’m disputing that part. They have no support for the rest either.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The divorce rate for the first 5 years is less than 20% in the the US. The US has a higher divorce rate than many countries so, in general, this is untrue.

I'm not sure you've shown that. I would be surprised if any meaningful number of (non-arranged) marriages are established in year zero of the relationship. A quick Google search suggests to me that the average relationship is established five years before getting married. The original assertion was that relationships tend to break down in year four, meaning that they aren't likely to make it to marriage in the typica…

No. The original assertion is that monogamous relationships AND marriages breakdown in the first five years at “very high rates”. Marriages do not. And, as you say, if you got married you were probably monogamous for some time before that.

I’m not disputing that humans get together and break up all the time.

It’s unclear that monogamous relationships breakup “at very high rates” due to boredom either. There are many reasons relationships falter, boredom being but one of them.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#475
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why is X already solved, except for maybe reason Y" is a HN staple comment though. A few months I came across "Other than nuclear weapons regulations, is there any reason this can't work to fix ?".

...any chance you have a link, or even just what the article was about so I can search back for an excellent addition to my quotes file?

Turned out to be about hydride tanks for hydrogen storage, but still:

> Hydride tanks don't require those high pressures. Other than nuclear arms treaties, is there a technical reason they don't use those instead?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27194023

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#476

I dunno. Maybe it's not "all about the money." I was a manager for 25 years (and stayed at the company for almost 27). When my team was finally dissolved, in 2017, the person with the least tenure had a decade. The person with the most had almost 27 years (he and I started on the same day, in 1990). The pay was...not so good. The corporation had some fairly lousy HR policies. I'm told that I was the reason that these…

That's great to hear that you provided an awesome space for your team. I think we won't see this kind of loyalty much going forward though, the opportunity cost now of not changing jobs for more $ has a greater downside now that 20 years ago. House prices are beyond ridiculous, lockdowns create confusion about the next 12-24 months, the economy is in a terrible state, but somehow the stock market marches forward. The…

Unfortunately, I have to agree. My father never made more than $40,000 USD per year, but owned a house in a nice area, and two cars.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's difficult to measure employee productivity. Sometimes, managers don't care. Sometimes employees make every effort to hide their lack of productivity. The former is the employer's problem and as far as the latter, I assume in this discussion that the employee isn't committing borderline or outright fraud with respect to the job description laid out in the contract. Considering how many people get hired to do fl…

> my goodwill only goes as far as "at will" employment protects me Something tells me that the commenters in this thread who are defending the idea of working hard just for the good fuzzy feelings have never been through a bad layoff.

I bet they've never been illegally fired because HR has no idea how FMLA works, been through a workers' comp lawsuit because the amount of stress in the work environment triggered their bipolar disorder, or sexually harassed to the point where they had to quit to salvage their mental health.

If those sound like awfully specific examples, they are. Each one of them actually happened to someone I know.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#478
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not really making an independent measurement here. You see developers "stagnating" and moving on; how do you know that's not caused by lack of pay increases and other things you're doing (letting people pick new projects, for example, to keep them interested)? Maybe if you did "go out of your way to retain employees" you'd have employees who end up making your business even more successful during their longer…

Output/performance shouldn't be determined by pay, ie pay is a lagging indicator of output/performance.

Especially in cases where people are being underpaid by quite a bit, it can be a hugely demotivational factor. It's not even about the money as such, but rather about the signal how much all your hard work and effort is appreciated: apparently not all that much if you're not being paid what you know you're worth.

I really don't care all that much about how I'm being paid, I'm pretty easy about it. But it nonetheless played a direct factor in quitting two jobs because I felt I was being woefully underpaid (which I objectively was; although I guess you'll have to my word for it) and efforts to bring it up to a more standard level were being frustrated to such a degree I felt that a lot of "extra effort" I had put in to the job just wasn't being appreciated at all.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Is it really junk or are we lacking in time/money/tribal knowledge to understand how it deeply works? I like to think that I am a Very Good Engineer™ but I am sure that I would produce a similar piece of "junk" if I was under the same lack of requirements, training and time. who wrote this garbage??? > git blame oh crap, it was me 2 years ago!

To me it is part of the problem. > are we lacking time/money/tribal knowledge to understand how it deeply works? This is a serious issue when a system becomes complex enough. For instance you work there for 4 years, became the most versed into the system, and have a hunch that the manual process to validate all submissions to some system could be wildly simplified. But then random managers come to ask “are you 100% s…

I definitely agree and I have seen this. I can understand being risk averse to change and unknowns but debt and cognitive load should be a consideration too.

This is why teams creating a billion microservices because it is the pattern of the day gets me a little angry. It is just another unused thing to watch out for.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the all-important point. It would be insane for me to try my best to make money for a company when the effort reward curve is so non linear. The only reason the idea of "doing the best job you can" is propagated is because it allows one to abuse workers. I could see myself working hard at a company with a flat-ish compensation structure tied directly to the revenue of the company. "If I make a penny my boss m…

Right—I don't get how not putting in something resembling full effort can be corruption, but a company not paying you as much as they could , rather than what they must , isn't corruption.

What's going on here is that, in theory, both sides of the employer/employee relationship are supposed to have equal or approximately equal negotiating power when it comes to things like wages, hours, and working conditions. But, that's in theory. You know, theory: the place where markets are never supposed to be irrational and there aren't any information asymmetries to exploit.

And, pretty much all of those deviations from theory end up going against workers and in favor of employers. Labor markets aren't truly free because most people can't afford to just quit their job one day, then walk across the street to their former employer's competitor and negotiate a more suitable contract. Health insurance is so expensive that most people probably couldn't afford the amount of coverage they need without the subsidy their employer provides. Meanwhile, employers get away with stuff like union busting, just like Amazon is accused of doing, because "punishable by fine" really means "perfectly legal, as long as you have enough money," so that regulatory fines get treated like just another "cost of doing business."

Is it any wonder the only narrative about the employer/employee relationship we ever hear is the one that's favorable to the more powerful side?

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