Where are the robotic bricklayers? • Hacker News Board

Re: Where are the robotic bricklayers?

#61

Post by coldacid » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 10:54 PM UTC

version_five wrote: post #43

spyckie2 wrote: post #31

The value of work is not in the work done; it's in the decisions being made. It's the ability to handle edge cases, to work your way through ambiguity, to "unstuck" a stuck situation, and to resolve tricky unforeseen issues. If you build a robot that only handles the main workflow and can't handle any of the exceptions, you're not automating anything; you're building a convenience tool. Basically, you're removing som…

What you're saying resonates for so many new products. I find that most time or labor saving ideas save time on something that is not actually the problem, or address a charicature of the actual workflow. I dont think it means we should give up and stop trying, rather that its critical to test with real users IMO before trying to sign deals on a product that doesn't make sense.

Not just test! Real users need to be there from the requirements stage.

Re: Where are the robotic bricklayers?

#62

Post by colordrops » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 10:55 PM UTC

egh wrote: post #28

The great contempt that computer people have for the skills that every human brings to the jobs that the do is always on display here. We haven't automated driving; we haven't automated picking tomatoes; we haven't automated bricklaying; we can't automate cooking a fucking hamburger. But they are completely convinced that it's just around the corner, because they are full of contempt for the skill and intelligence of…

Having respect for the skills of a worker and also believing that they are possible to automate are not mutually exclusive. It's no different from people saying the same thing about chess and chess players, or go and go players, before the problem was solved.

And it's not just blue collar workers that are a target of this idea. We are already starting to see automated programming moving out of the research lab and into the commercial realm, e.g. GitHub copilot.

Re: Where are the robotic bricklayers?

#63

Post by cogman10 » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 10:56 PM UTC

egh wrote: post #28

The great contempt that computer people have for the skills that every human brings to the jobs that the do is always on display here. We haven't automated driving; we haven't automated picking tomatoes; we haven't automated bricklaying; we can't automate cooking a fucking hamburger. But they are completely convinced that it's just around the corner, because they are full of contempt for the skill and intelligence of…

It's always a little weird the jobs that are easy to automate vs the jobs that are hard to automate.

Jobs that require interaction with the physical world and people will almost always be a hard to automate thing. There are simply too many variables.

The real problem is when we make the results of a job worse to aid in automation. The prime example here is tomatoes being breed with thick skin, picked before ripened, and then squirted with some chemicals to make them red so people will buy them. All while sacrificing taste.

Re: Where are the robotic bricklayers?

#64

Post by bsder » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 10:56 PM UTC

egh wrote: post #28

The great contempt that computer people have for the skills that every human brings to the jobs that the do is always on display here. We haven't automated driving; we haven't automated picking tomatoes; we haven't automated bricklaying; we can't automate cooking a fucking hamburger. But they are completely convinced that it's just around the corner, because they are full of contempt for the skill and intelligence of…

People also seem to always miss that we always engineer the product in order to be able to automate it.

The most automated things have been designed by engineers with robotic assembly in mind.

Re: Where are the robotic bricklayers?

#65

Post by savanaly » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 10:58 PM UTC

orev wrote: post #60

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have contempt for the skills; I have great respect for the skills. I have contempt for the prices of things. If construction costs are cheaper than ever (are they really?) why can't I buy a box to live in without spending $300,000? Why is the permits process nationally broken? And despite being skilled, that doesn't mean they're informed: why do contractors not know what they're supposed to do? Why do the peo…

The price consumers pay for something has nothing to do with the cost of producing it. Not counting the cost of the land itself, an identical house built in the city costs the same in hours and materials as one in the country. Price is determined by one thing, and one thing only: how much other people are willing to pay for it (i.e. the market sets the prices). The costs vs sale price are relevant to the builder in m…

This is only true in the short run by the way. In the long run, in a competitive market, cost is absolutely the driver of price.

Re: Where are the robotic bricklayers?

#66

Post by grandmczeb » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 10:58 PM UTC

egh wrote: post #28

The great contempt that computer people have for the skills that every human brings to the jobs that the do is always on display here. We haven't automated driving; we haven't automated picking tomatoes; we haven't automated bricklaying; we can't automate cooking a fucking hamburger. But they are completely convinced that it's just around the corner, because they are full of contempt for the skill and intelligence of…

> The great contempt that computer people have for the skills that every human brings to the jobs that the do is always on display here.

I'm confused - based on your Github profile I assume you'd fall under the category of "computer people". Are you saying you feel this way? Because I certainly don't.

Re: Where are the robotic bricklayers?

#67

Post by version_five » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 10:59 PM UTC

coldacid wrote: post #61

version_five wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're saying resonates for so many new products. I find that most time or labor saving ideas save time on something that is not actually the problem, or address a charicature of the actual workflow. I dont think it means we should give up and stop trying, rather that its critical to test with real users IMO before trying to sign deals on a product that doesn't make sense.

Not just test! Real users need to be there from the requirements stage.

Yes agreed, sorry I was thinking in terms of a new product, testing the value prop with users, which is probably better stated as requirements gathering.

Re: Where are the robotic bricklayers?

#68

Post by spideymans » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 10:59 PM UTC

egh wrote: post #28

The great contempt that computer people have for the skills that every human brings to the jobs that the do is always on display here. We haven't automated driving; we haven't automated picking tomatoes; we haven't automated bricklaying; we can't automate cooking a fucking hamburger. But they are completely convinced that it's just around the corner, because they are full of contempt for the skill and intelligence of…

When you have a hammer, everything look like a nail. Technology is our hammer.

Re: Where are the robotic bricklayers?

#69

Post by WillPostForFood » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 11:01 PM UTC

avgDev wrote: post #54

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have contempt for the skills; I have great respect for the skills. I have contempt for the prices of things. If construction costs are cheaper than ever (are they really?) why can't I buy a box to live in without spending $300,000? Why is the permits process nationally broken? And despite being skilled, that doesn't mean they're informed: why do contractors not know what they're supposed to do? Why do the peo…

Cost of lumber, cost of land, cost of equipment, cost of permits, cost of inspections. It really isn't a box for $300k. You can buy a mobile home for what $60k? Permit process isn't broken.....this is a view often held by incompetent contractors. I have performed various jobs like building retaining walls, bathrooms, electrical, decks and never had an issue as long as my work was up to code. Permits can protect a hom…

>and never had an issue as long as my work was up to code

Permits cost tens of thousands of dollars, and months of processing in my area. They’re happy to sign off at the end after they’ve extracted the maximum they can from you.

Re: Where are the robotic bricklayers?

#70

Post by MontyCarloHall » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 11:03 PM UTC

cogman10 wrote: post #63

egh wrote: post #28

The great contempt that computer people have for the skills that every human brings to the jobs that the do is always on display here. We haven't automated driving; we haven't automated picking tomatoes; we haven't automated bricklaying; we can't automate cooking a fucking hamburger. But they are completely convinced that it's just around the corner, because they are full of contempt for the skill and intelligence of…

It's always a little weird the jobs that are easy to automate vs the jobs that are hard to automate. Jobs that require interaction with the physical world and people will almost always be a hard to automate thing. There are simply too many variables. The real problem is when we make the results of a job worse to aid in automation. The prime example here is tomatoes being breed with thick skin, picked before ripened,…

Your observation is closely related to Moravec’s paradox of artificial intelligence: “It is comparatively easy to make computers exhibit adult level performance on intelligence tests or playing checkers, and difficult or impossible to give them the skills of a one-year-old when it comes to perception and mobility.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravec%27s_paradox