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The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk”

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21–30 of 109 posts

Re: The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk”

#21

I can't help but wonder why, now , someone has chosen to highlight what is still far too small a movement and treat it as though it were a dangerous threat, and then demonize it by associating it with a few of its wealthier proponents. Things like Effective Altruism and looking at existential risk are hardly drawing a substantial amount of attention right now; they should be, but they could get ten times the attentio…

Perhaps because some wealthy individuals with outsized influence+power are becoming so out of touch with the present they might cause outsized harm.

Anyone seriously trying to tell people they shouldn't work to address climate change should rightfully be decried for causing harm. But the angle of trying to paint everyone thinking about existential risk with that brush is itself irresponsible and inaccurate.

There are lots of people spouting things like "don't bother about climate change", and that harmful group has almost no overlap with anyone thinking seriously about the future of humanity. Taking the vanishingly small intersection and drumming it up for outsized outrage is ridiculous and harmful.

Another, far less ridiculous angle would be "here's a tiny group of wealthy people with weirdly contradictory viewpoints". Perhaps that might not have gathered as many clicks, though.

Re: The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk”

#22
People here forget another big problem with far-future oriented thinking is that's it's almost impossible to predict anything about the future, especially the fat future. We don't know if there could be a superintelligent evil Ai. We don't know if there could be 10^54 humans

Re: The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk”

#23
post #7

This article just attempts to discredit the idea of longtermism by ridiculing it, instead of presenting any actual counterarguments. It just writes about the implications of its strawman over and over in a sardonic tone. The only thing it wants to get across is “some rich people and philosophy weirdos like this idea, therefore it is bad”. Where are the actual counter-arguments in the article? I suppose it relies on t…

> Where are the actual counter-arguments in the article?

It doesn't appear to attempt to make actual arguments.

I think the article's mostly just an emotional appeal. I'd speculate that the argument-like content is meant as flavoring, to make the raw emotionalism less unpalatable.

Re: The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk”

#24

I can't help but wonder why, now , someone has chosen to highlight what is still far too small a movement and treat it as though it were a dangerous threat, and then demonize it by associating it with a few of its wealthier proponents. Things like Effective Altruism and looking at existential risk are hardly drawing a substantial amount of attention right now; they should be, but they could get ten times the attentio…

They are attacked because they are committing blasphemy against the church of climate change.

There is no threshold for blasphemy, even the tiniest one must be punished and made an example of so that others don't get any ideas that blasphemy will be tolerated.

Re: The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk”

#25
Hence, they point out that focusing on superintelligence gets you a way bigger bang for your buck than, say, preventing people who exist right now from contracting malaria by distributing mosquito nets.

The article seems to push for a narrative that effective altruism encourages ignoring current problems in favor of Super Science Future Hooey, but this quote brings up something important.

Mosquito nets are one of the most often suggested effective interventions in EA circles. Highly rated organizations like the Against Malaria Foundation focus on them. It's been one of GiveWell's top charities for a long time: https://www.givewell.org/charities/top-charities

There are people who consider themselves effective altruists concerned with existential risks, however the article focuses on one logical extreme of analysis:

Well, just crunch the numbers: 0.00000000001 percent of 1023 people is 10 billion people, which is ten times greater than 1 billion people.

While you do sometimes see analyses like these, they're more often used as intuition pumps and in stress testing ethical frameworks than anything else. If someone were to try to use something like the above in an argument, it would likely just become an unpersuasive Pascal's Mugging.

In reality, you can make an overwhelming case for paying attention to existential risk while valuing 'potential' lives at precisely zero. It turns out that 'everyone who exists now, dies' is pretty bad, and many of the potential existential threats have nonnegligible probability. Civilizational threats are even more likely, and still extremely bad.

Articles like this would make sense to me if the government was preparing to throw trillions of dollars at speculative 'longtermist' problems based on low probability/high impact arguments, but they're not. Instead, we see massive underinvestment even given a valuation of potential humans at zero.

I want to avoid a path where effective altruism- which, at its core, is just people trying to do a better job of doing good, through many different paths- becomes some political football or ammunition in a culture war. This kind of article seems to be really trying to do that.

Re: The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk”

#26
post #7

This article just attempts to discredit the idea of longtermism by ridiculing it, instead of presenting any actual counterarguments. It just writes about the implications of its strawman over and over in a sardonic tone. The only thing it wants to get across is “some rich people and philosophy weirdos like this idea, therefore it is bad”. Where are the actual counter-arguments in the article? I suppose it relies on t…

I disagree. The article argues that putting things in term of the "existential" distracts from immediate problems - for example, if climate change can be terrible risk but still not an existential risk. And more broadly, you see the argument extrapolate to an almost purely hypothetical future evades discussion of real risks in the present.

Re: The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk”

#27
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Climate change is always a risk but unlikely existential or at least to the extent it is we know how to handle it pretty well. So well that the number of climate related deaths have plummeted quite dramatically the last 100 years. We are constantly working on impacting nature in ways that make it safer for us whether we are talking building houses, using energy to keep warm or creating higher yield crop. AI isn't nec…

AI is 98%-likelihood “benign” (i.e. just a tool, which is certainly not benign for those of us that it gets used against!) and 1%-likelihood world-ending catastrophe , like grey goo or nuclear armageddon. (Made-up percentages that don't even sum to 100%.) I don't think we have much to worry about for a while, because brains are pretty efficient, very few computers are as powerful as human brains, and there's a limit…

The risk, presumably is the outcomes of climate change- which are uncertain and almost certainly not guaranteed death for everyone

Re: The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk”

#28
We have a concept of discounting the future for uncertainty, resulting in a “net present value”. If you think you can make 10^23 people’s lives better far in the future, you discount that future outcome by the inherent uncertainty that things will play out resulting in that gain.

You can then readily compare that to the uncertainty between now and next year to see if a change next year for a billion people is better or worse.

I want people worrying about hundreds and thousands of years from. I also want (more) people worrying about 2022 and 2032.

Re: The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk”

#29
> Hence, they point out that focusing on superintelligence gets you a way bigger bang for your buck than, say, preventing people who exist right now from contracting malaria by distributing mosquito nets.

This comment and others in the article seem to be making a (bad) case that Effective Altruists don't care about the Global South. I find this bizarre because all EA enthusiasts I know are very much into mosquito net altruism.

GiveWell, an organization very popular among EA folks, has a list of top charities and most of them target the Global South https://www.givewell.org/charities/top-charities.

Re: The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk”

#30
post #23
post #7

This article just attempts to discredit the idea of longtermism by ridiculing it, instead of presenting any actual counterarguments. It just writes about the implications of its strawman over and over in a sardonic tone. The only thing it wants to get across is “some rich people and philosophy weirdos like this idea, therefore it is bad”. Where are the actual counter-arguments in the article? I suppose it relies on t…

> Where are the actual counter-arguments in the article? It doesn't appear to attempt to make actual arguments. I think the article's mostly just an emotional appeal. I'd speculate that the argument-like content is meant as flavoring, to make the raw emotionalism less unpalatable.

That's incorrect. The article is making the argument that "Longtermism" is weighing purely hypothetical (and basic incalculable) future things more than present things. Whether this argument is true or not, there is an argument here.
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