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Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

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Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#201
post #86
post #11

To chime in with my own anecdotal opinion that is likely to anger some people... in my experience most developers do their best work after about 6-8 months of starting a job at a new company, and that comes to an end after about 24-36 months of working at the same company. After that the vast majority of people just stagnate, get complacent, the job stops being interesting to them and they move on. After observing th…

I would look at inverting the causality there. If your data is accurate, I think it's better to say, "Most companies create developer jobs that get boring for people after 24-36 months." I was chatting with a Trader Joe's cashier Sunday. It turns out they change jobs every hour. That was a surprise to me; when I long ago worked in a grocery store, I was assigned to one position for 8 hours for every shift. Why does T…

I worked with an engineer. She told me that when working at her previous company they permitted you to switch teams every 2 years. Every 2 years she would take that opportunity and got to work on a huge variety of projects with lots of different people. Some of them good, some of them not.

It kept her there for 12 years or so.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#203

I don't really understand this article, or the current trend of job hopping. I'm from the generation where you have one job, maybe two, and that's it: I've had 7, but I really only ever wanted one good job. For some perspective: when I left Intel circa 2010, I was a Senior Staff Engineer fighting to get promoted to Principal Engineer (followed by Senoir Principal, then Fellow, then Senior Fellow, hahaha). FYI I loved…

How many companies will be around in 30 years? Half the companies I've worked for in the past do not exist anymore. The idea that you could get a job and stay there until retirement is antiquated at best.

Guessing that I'm less than 10 years younger than you, I had a college professor that told my class to change jobs every 5 years to maximize income. That was in the early 90s.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#204
This isn't going to end well for Matthew, well if he doesn't work the back side of the curve, let me explain;

The challenge is performance is transitory and pay is forever. Specifically, you will have engineers who happen to be on a project at a time when they can have a big impact, and they do and you want to reward that. But then the next few years might be polishing that project's stability and corner cases which will "feel" like very little impact. As a result if you change their pay to reflect their impact when they first deliver, and leave it like that, then the next few years will "feel" like the curve is inverted and your paying and not getting the impact that you would expect from that level of pay.

This is why, invariably, engineer pay tends to evolve into "base pay" + "bonus pay" which can be thought of as the cost of keeping you around and the appreciation for what you have done for us this year. Many people make the "bonus pay" a fraction of your base pay, in that way an increase in your base pay will be reflected in larger bonuses later. Google famously did this and then added a twist which was called a "personal multiplier"(PM). This PM could range from 0 to 3, and the trick was it was kept secret. In that way you could never know whether or not your manager was "playing favorites"[1]. But it gave them a nice talking point about being "open" about how you would be compensated while not letting you convert the how into actual numbers.

The second thing is that everyone is different. And even when they are a lot the same, they are different. Sometimes people will reach a compensation level that meets all of their needs, and lets them save for retirement, and they don't "need" any more than that. Tandem had a great term for that, it was called people who "retired in grade" which was code for someone who was not being motivated by pay any more so they weren't working as hard as it was possible to work them.

The third thing is that sociopaths love a score. They really really do. All you have to do to get the most out of a sociopath is tell them how you are going to score them and let them see how they score relative to other people. (you'll say "pay" in your discussions but the sociopath will hear "score.") These folks will invest all of their time and effort in "winning", and because they are sociopaths they won't necessarily use that tactic of "work harder than those you are competing with." They may in fact spend all of their time developing schemes to sabotage other efforts in order that their effort stands out. Really not a great place to be, really.

The bottom line is that compensation is hard, doing it well requires that you be honest about what you would pay someone to replace the person you are evaluating and verifying that you are paying them at least that much. And when people start going the other way, you need a plan for that too (you can fire them of course, but as the article mentions they have lots of domain specific knowledge that is handy). Generally successful companies move those people to working on projects that are important but not urgent.

[1] To no ones surprise, the managers were playing favorites.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#205

I don't really understand this article, or the current trend of job hopping. I'm from the generation where you have one job, maybe two, and that's it: I've had 7, but I really only ever wanted one good job. For some perspective: when I left Intel circa 2010, I was a Senior Staff Engineer fighting to get promoted to Principal Engineer (followed by Senoir Principal, then Fellow, then Senior Fellow, hahaha). FYI I loved…

Loyalty to your company went away with pensions. Also, if those numbers are right I might need to clean up my resume.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#206
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. I’ve gotten a bit tired of hearing people talk about their absurd compensation as though it’s their yearly earning and that everyone should get it, only to ignore the part about it vesting quarterly starting 1 year after reception, over 4 years.

When people talk about comp, they usually talk about the # of $$ they took home last year - anything else is magic money so to speak. For the same reason a manager isn't going to value a $10MM grant in company that ended up being a penny stock, he isn't going to downgrade a company that resurrected from the pits either. Money in hand last year is the best measure possible/available.

That's not what it looks like on levels.fyi. It's regularly: "SDE 1, 110k + 75k stock options", and then levels.fyi will declare that 185, not 110 + 0, 112 + 38, 115 + 19, 120 + 19

edit: and then people will come on here and say "look! Brand new Google employees make 200k!"

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#207

I don't really understand this article, or the current trend of job hopping. I'm from the generation where you have one job, maybe two, and that's it: I've had 7, but I really only ever wanted one good job. For some perspective: when I left Intel circa 2010, I was a Senior Staff Engineer fighting to get promoted to Principal Engineer (followed by Senoir Principal, then Fellow, then Senior Fellow, hahaha). FYI I loved…

> I don't really understand this article, or the current trend of job hopping.

The answer is in your comment: your friend who started recently at Intel is getting more than double the salary of the long-timers. What's not to understand?

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#208
post #106

My all-time highest HN comment was this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23563997 Basically, why do I get such big raises when I switch companies, but getting a nontrivial raise when at a company is like pulling teeth? How come every company I work for is willing to give me a huge raise and reward me for my achievements at other companies, and not do the same for achievements at that company? The discussion that…

I remember that thread (and replied to it!). It's important to remember the whole "30-40% raise when you switch jobs" only really happens at the beginning of your career. Your next job switch will maybe be 20-30%, your next one 10-20%, etc. until you reach the inevitable compensation plateau. I'm over 20 years into my career and my last job change was for +1% or so. No company would offer more. If one could actually…

Of course, the idea is you reach that upper limit sooner, and making so much more earlier in your career - when properly invested - compounds upon itself dramatically and had enormous implications for one's own financial safety and lifestyle.

And also, thanks for your reply there, nice to hear from you again!

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nitpick: From the PoV of the (public tech) employers, they typically look at compensation not including appreciation of the restricted stock. It's typically "base + bonus + new stock grant value" or sometimes "base + bonus + value of the restricted stock that vests this year, but using the value at GRANT time, not at VEST time". More specifically as an employee, I think any incremental value from holding the stock is…

Thank you. I’ve gotten a bit tired of hearing people talk about their absurd compensation as though it’s their yearly earning and that everyone should get it, only to ignore the part about it vesting quarterly starting 1 year after reception, over 4 years.

Most people give their total compensation as their base salary + (initial grant / vesting period). It is an annual figure, but only a good proxy for year 1.

In later years the situation is more complicated as the stock price will move, you'll receive annual refreshes which are performance dependent, and you might reach a new level. While the base salary changes with levels can be modest, 15% or so, refresher targets can practically double from level to level.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#210
post #48
post #11

To chime in with my own anecdotal opinion that is likely to anger some people... in my experience most developers do their best work after about 6-8 months of starting a job at a new company, and that comes to an end after about 24-36 months of working at the same company. After that the vast majority of people just stagnate, get complacent, the job stops being interesting to them and they move on. After observing th…

Yes, it takes about 6m in a medium to big organizations to figure out what to do and with whom you have to speek to get stuff done. And for 2 years everything is rosy. Then you speak with you colleagues that changed jobs and find out that their income is 30% to 40% higher. That will, of course, put a downer on your day/week/quarter/year. You have 2 options, speak with your current company about compensation or leave.…

> I was offered a measly 5% after being dragged in 4 meetings about how great I am.

The way you do this is interview elsewhere, get an offer for 40% more, and _then_ tell your manager that you have an offer for 40% more and that you'd really like to stay but they'd really have to do something about compensation. You'll get more than 5% then (but likely less than 40%). It's annoying that you have to invest the time for this, but it does provide data to your current company that your market rate is in fact what you think it is.

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